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Old 12-17-2011, 01:26 AM   #141
Agnostic Pope
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BIOSHOCK
Seriously. It's not even funny.
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Old 12-17-2011, 01:30 AM   #142
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And what gives your society the right to enter another country and release this person from their plight, especially if it is allowed in that country?
Intervention to prevent an ethical violation is always justified. It's the one commonly recognized exemption to private property and territorial monopoly. It's also the same basis upon which the US invaded Iraq, and it wasn't mere pretext.

Just as it's always ethical to responsibly invade a family where child-abuse is reasonably suspected.

Naturally there would have to be legal proceedings when such an action is being considered, at the federal level, or after the fact as in a standard investigation when such things happen in our own world currently.

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With the average person, this makes sense. But some current countries have it so that religion is law. If you try to make an agnostic judgment, basically ignoring their religion, hostilities will only rise. There idea of basic rights are different from yours.
True, and I don't have any problem with conflict as long as that conflict is to secure another's freedom.

Ideally, let's say 30 years from now a watery society such as the one I propose has come into existence, and a citizen of another country applies for asylum, and furthermore is granted citizenship. And this citizen claims to be held against their will. If a sex slave, they can be interviewed in an undercover manner easily enough--there're organizations down there already doing this.

But those organizations are essentially hamstrung, because they're forced to work within the system, with the existing police, which are corrupt and get bought out. So there could end up being undercover operations. Which would be illegal within the confines of that country, but ultimately ethical given the situation. And if it's ethical, that's what gives you the right to do it.

Certainly things get very risky when you talk about invading countries to free people, but hey, that's what heroes are for.

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So no roads, walkways, or any common grounds?
There's un-owned sea outside the city walls and in the breakwater inside them. Everything inside is owned. There aren't any roads unless you mean venice-style waterways, and these can actually be owned. If it's a road made out of floating land, it would have to be owned.

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Is it just going to be buildings next to each other? So no zoning laws, as the state cannot get involved in the economy, somebody could open up a sex shop alcohol store next to a private school? Or a whore house? And what about health inspectors?
Well, it's an artificial harbor, so buildings can be as spread out or not as they like.

Correct, zoning laws will be illegal. Whore house, feel free, but I'm sure the neighbors will move away (luckily that's easy on the sea). Alcohol and private school, of course. There's not even a legal drinking age. This is adult society. Parents will decide for you when they want to let you drink, within reason of course. If there's a drunk 5-year old then clearly the parents are being irresponsible and intervention required.

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So police and fire do their job then bill you, or how do they get paid?
Most likely you'd subscribe to a firefighter insurance service which would get you a greatly reduced (or even free) fee if you actually have a fire they have to put out (although this is the ocean, really easy to suck seawater and put out your own fire). Same with police.

But ultimately how you want to handle it can be determined by the jurisdiction you select. Say you want to join a jurisdiction that does things the way we do here, you could start a charter that says that everyone will pay property taxes determined by the city officials, etc. But it will be voluntary to join that charter and that city.

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If police are private companies, say goodbye to warnings for minor infractions.
On the contrary. Say goodbye to bullshit tickets designed only to create revenue for the city. $250 to run a red light? In fact, no speeding laws whatsoever.

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If health inspectors are fee for service, nobody will hire them. If it is mandatory, then you no longer have seperation of economy and state.
Independent ratings companies take the place of city health inspectors.

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And where will this rent money and pay for employees come from?
From fees out of contract enforcement generated by the courts. It may also be that a jurisdiction could charge you a fee to support the few employees the jurisdiction maintains to keep a government going, also something like a subscription service because you can easily escape it.

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Are people going to be given a bill when they take somebody to court?
You get a bill when you take someone to arbitration.

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And when the heads of state need to meet with other heads of state, say in the situation of possible world war where nations can state their reasoning, where will the travel expenses come from?
Hmm, not sure. My first instinct would be to say a hard-coded tariff, but I support free trade... I'll have to think about that one. It's possible the fed could charge a nominal per-person fee yearly for each charter.

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Your plan is too full of holes that are easy to patch, but not to fix. It's easy to explain a more perfect society, but it's all the headaches that are already there that are crushing yours, and countless unknowns that will pop up.
Such is progress. Keeps it interesting
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Old 12-17-2011, 10:54 AM   #143
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Why? What history?
All of human history. For someone who claims to have biblical faith, you display an alarming ignorance of the human condition. Humanity inevitably descends into anarchy and violence absent entities within society endowed with the power of force. THAT is the human condition, it is displayed throughout ALL of human history, and you show yourself for a progressive hiding behind the false mantle of conservatism if you believe human society can be perfected and harmonized by humanity itself, absent force. The greatest proof of this is the culmination of humanity's progress over the previous millenia in the 20th century, the bloodiest century in human history. It's not getting 'better,' we're not progressing out of the human condition, and we'll never be able to build a society without force.

Your idea fails, because it is built upon an incorrect progressive supposition. This does, however, explain a helluva lot about you. You're a very confused person.
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Old 12-17-2011, 11:23 AM   #144
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I say we encourage everyone; give a man enough rope and he'll hang himself.
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Old 12-17-2011, 04:32 PM   #145
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All of human history. For someone who claims to have biblical faith, you display an alarming ignorance of the human condition. Humanity inevitably descends into anarchy and violence absent entities within society endowed with the power of force.
Did you even read my comment? Once again you're going to ignore that I have a police force and the rule of law. I totally called it. Conversation over if you can't even bother to read responses and address them cogently.

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THAT is the human condition, it is displayed throughout ALL of human history, and you show yourself for a progressive hiding behind the false mantle of conservatism if you believe human society can be perfected and harmonized by humanity itself, absent force.
Lol, never said anything like that.

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The greatest proof of this is the culmination of humanity's progress over the previous millenia in the 20th century, the bloodiest century in human history. It's not getting 'better,' we're not progressing out of the human condition, and we'll never be able to build a society without force.
Great. Go rant at someone who actually said you could build a society without the rule of law, because I never did.

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Your idea fails, because it is built upon an incorrect progressive supposition. This does, however, explain a helluva lot about you. You're a very confused person.
You simply don't understand my idea. Drawing conclusions on a false premise is idiotic. But I didn't really expect much from you.

I'm done. This tool can't carry a conversation, he just keeps parroting the same line and won't even read my responses.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:10 PM   #146
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You simply don't understand my idea.
You simply don't understand human nature, nor does your rhetoric match your ability to dream up idiotic and failed fantasies to mentally masturbate to.

Wherever you have people, even with laws in place, you have disagreements and violence, both against the law AND in enforcing it. Where you don't have law, you have violent anarchy. The only place on earth where your idea will work is in your own bathtub, with the door closed, alone. Break out your rubber ducky.

Floating fail.
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:37 AM   #147
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You simply don't understand human nature, nor does your rhetoric match your ability to dream up idiotic and failed fantasies to mentally masturbate to.

Wherever you have people, even with laws in place, you have disagreements and violence, both against the law AND in enforcing it. Where you don't have law, you have violent anarchy. The only place on earth where your idea will work is in your own bathtub, with the door closed, alone. Break out your rubber ducky.

Floating fail.
Hey, Negative Nelly, you're crossing the line into vile and vicious.

Since your argument reduces to "civilization is not possible under any circumstances" and is refuted by the fact that we all live in workable societies, then I don't see much point in discussing the point further with you.
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:52 AM   #148
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Huh, I was waiting on a rebuttal of some kind in which he can relate masturbation with coming of age or that joy you get when you submit to a regime. EVEN MORE PLEASURABLE UNDER STRESS AND DESPERATION ! His statement was a bit harsh though but I guess he REALLY takes politics to HEART.

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Old 12-20-2011, 04:08 AM   #149
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It begins:



There's a huge draw for hi-tech jobs in silicon valley, yet the US (foolishly) turns away thousands of people we've educated in American universities in an attempt to be fair, people who want to stay, are productive and working.

So, to get around the restrictions, a company called Blueseed is planning offshore living dorms for $1200 - $3000 a month, less than what it would cost to rent an apartment in SanFran.

The H1-B Visa restrictions don't allow them to stay overnight in the US, but do allow them to work here. So, they'd ferry or fly by helicopter in each day and back, about 90 minutes by boat--12 miles off shore.

They plan to setup about 600 of these vessels mostly around SanFran.

http://singularityhub.com/2011/12/08...-in-the-ocean/

Quote:
Bureaucracy? Ha. Work Visas? Ha. A seasteader craves not these things. The Blueseed Project is one of the more exciting, and by some estimates outrageous, solutions to the bureaucratic hurdles that face many new startups in Silicon Valley. Securing work visas for the thousands of foreign born engineers and innovators that the Valley desperately needs is hard and tedious work. Many fledgling companies simply can’t afford the effort. So what if all that red tape could be avoided? What if there was a startup incubator outside US jurisdiction…on the ocean?

Blueseed aims to develop an offshore site 12 miles from the coast of San Francisco where 1000 startup employees could live and work without having to immigrate to the United States.

The idea already has the approval and funding of PayPal founder Peter Thiel, and a seemingly endless supply of public interest. Much of it hyperbolic. Yet this $10 – 30 million project hoping to begin work in Q3 of 2013 isn’t going to be a “slave ship” or a “libertarian utopia”. It’s just another innovative business solution to an existing problem. One that could help maintain Silicon Valley’s global dominance in entrepreneurship, and maybe even set a new tone for how businesses deal with government regulations that hamper their growth...
Maybe I'll go work for this company
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:36 AM   #150
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Anenome, someone beat you to the punch. Visa-free work centers in international waters off the coast of California:

http://www.blueseed.co/
Page 2 dude...
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:38 AM   #151
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Page 2 dude...
Yeah, I saw news of them again and thought I'd give a full writeup. I'm sure there're people new to the thread who didn't go back in and read that far since this topic became active again. Plus it's obliquely telling Johan to shut his fucking face :P

They plan to have the first platform operating in 2013.
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Old 12-20-2011, 07:11 AM   #152
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Since your argument reduces to "civilization is not possible under any circumstances"
No, my argument reduces to "Your idea for a libertarian paradise is refuted by all of human history, and is only workable in your bathtub, but keep mentally masturbating to it if it gets you off."
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Old 12-20-2011, 11:54 AM   #153
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No, my argument reduces to "Your idea for a libertarian paradise is refuted by all of human history, and is only workable in your bathtub, but keep mentally masturbating to it if it gets you off."(Citation needed)
FTFY. Go troll somewhere else.
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:23 PM   #154
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I think that Johan's comments are little defeatist, I understand that he is stating that some things cannot be done because throughout human history it was shown that human mess things up/are violent/do not improve.... That has never stopped great minds before though from trying things regardless of what history shown us, maybe using history as a guide to making the utopean society work this time around. I'd be the last person to call Anenome a "great mind" but stating an idea would fail just because "it never worked in the past" is what people have said to pioneers in every field throughout history and we would still be in caves if everyone listened to that sentiment. I hope that made sense.
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Old 12-20-2011, 01:05 PM   #155
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I think that Johan's comments are little defeatist, I understand that he is stating that some things cannot be done because throughout human history it was shown that human mess things up/are violent/do not improve.... That has never stopped great minds before though from trying things regardless of what history shown us, maybe using history as a guide to making the utopean society work this time around. I'd be the last person to call Anenome a "great mind" but stating an idea would fail just because "it never worked in the past" is what people have said to pioneers in every field throughout history and we would still be in caves if everyone listened to that sentiment. I hope that made sense.
Exactly. My idea is not one that relies on human beings somehow improving themselves or be angels to work. It accepts that there will be a need for law and law enforcement and dispute resolution.

He should direct his argument at the anarchists, because it's they whose ideas he's actually opposing.

And telling me it "can't be done" isn't going to convince me of anything. What's he saying can't be done, a new society based on legal principles known to work can't work? Self-refuting based on history. Or that a floating permanent structure can't work? Uh, oil platforms anyone? Refuted.

He's just pissing vinegar in yet another thread.

As for this being a utopian society--it's not. It was never intended to be. It's merely a society built on specific political ideals. Ideals that don't exist in any existing system/country because nearly all the modern societies we have today came into existence before these libertarian political ideals spread broadly enough to be influential. Many times in the past, people have lived in a de facto libertarian societies (which is how we know they work fine, unlike anarchism), again refuting Johan, but it didn't last because those people didn't have principle behind it for people to latch on and hold on to, to maintain that style of life. They lived that way almost accidentally, and lost it just as easily. The best example is the American colonies, with the King living so far away, the Americans essentially had no control exerted over them.

For them it really did become a way of life, and when the King bucked that culture, we fought back. We created the articles of confederation which would've kept that limited government system going indefinitely, but instead the Constitution was railroaded through years later.

Of course, now there's no land left to go try out a new idea, no place for Neo-pilgrims to go. And libertarians, with our commitment to the non-aggression principle (NAP), cannot and will not foment or carry out revolution the way communists do who believe in power over ethics (and they will murder for power).

So, the solution, a floating nation. It's very simple really. And from there, space itself.
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Old 12-20-2011, 01:48 PM   #156
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Kowloon Walled City inhabitants lived peacefully for nearly a century without any government or law enforcement, up until the Chinese came in and demolished the place. The residents kept crime rate low, provided education for children, and created several thriving businesses and factories.
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Old 12-20-2011, 01:57 PM   #157
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Kowloon Walled City inhabitants lived peacefully for nearly a century without any government or law enforcement, up until the Chinese came in and demolished the place. The residents kept crime rate low, provided education for children, and created several thriving businesses and factories.
Venice survived for centuries in this manner, thrived and prospered. Historically the way we live now is much less usual. The ancient world was about one powerful city, not a country.

My challenge is to provide for national defense while restoring the historical focus on a city ruling itself rather than our current system of cities being ruled from the top down.

It's a redistribution of power back to how things have historically been, and indeed back to the individual themselves--in line with Libertarian thinking.

Rather than having one Venice, have a thousand Venices and let competition in the market and competition for citizens rule the roost. Such will create a government responsive to the citizens, because it removes the territorial monopoly that governments on land have.

If a government knew you could reject it and choose another government, there would be something like competition in government.

That's the overall theme: to provide competition for a thing that by nature has a territorial monopoly (namely government).

And we'll do this by allowing people to choose their jurisdiction in a free-form fashion, creating a scenario where jurisdictions can vanish if they don't please their members. Right now it's inconceivable to imagine even a city as failed as Detroit vanishing. The people have had to leave because the jurisdiction, though a complete failure, the jurisdiction is permanent.

I think a failing government should have that failure come down on its own head rather than the heads of those living in that system. People shouldn't be forced to leave, the bad government should leave.

It's a new way of looking at government. The actual system of government is the same as what we have now, cities with a ruling order, laws and law enforcement. What changes are a few key things that make all the difference. It's not really radical, compared to anarchism or communism. It is just our current system reduced to the minimum level to give maximum power to the citizens, to redistribute power to citizens.
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Old 12-20-2011, 02:38 PM   #158
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Anenome in his libertarian kingdom:



Quote:
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I'd be the last person to call Anenome a "great mind" but stating an idea would fail just because "it never worked in the past" is what people have said to pioneers in every field throughout history and we would still be in caves if everyone listened to that sentiment. I hope that made sense.
The point isn't that 'it's never been done before' dooms something to never being possible. That's ridiculous. The point is that anyone who claims to approach life from a biblical perspective (see Anenome's signature linking to a book) who views society, composed of people after all, as somehow perfectable or possible absent the presence of force and compulsion (i.e. a libertarian state), has a failed understanding of human nature, which has at its center, to varying degrees naturally, selfishness and violence. Such a person also has a failed view of biblical ethics and morality, because a truly libertarian society would allow unbiblical, immoral practices.

No truly libertarian society will ever be possible, because everyone's inclinations of what is permissible and what is not, of what infringes on the rights of others and what does not, varies. You either have anarchy, or the presence of force, to varying degrees, imposing boundaries upon the populace.

Human nature, encapsulated in a comic:

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Old 12-20-2011, 03:17 PM   #159
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Heh..johan in another argument

BTW I think this is anenome's vision:

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Old 12-20-2011, 03:20 PM   #160
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