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Old 04-13-2018, 06:27 PM   #1501
vallor
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You ignored my point and instead diverted it to a question of quality. The fact is American designed cars are, culturally and logistically speaking, not well suited for foreign infrastructure and fuel prices.

They *tend* to be too big (especially given some of the roads in these places!) and *tend* to use too much gas. They are also considered "ugly" because many foreign countries assign "personalities" to their vehicles based on looks but America didn't for a very long time. You could see it in the shape of the grill and position of the headlights of the car was a "happy smiling car" or "growling".

Again, as a general rule.

You also ignored that even when given the option of a similarly equipped "import" vs. a less expensive American car in the same category the "import" (the AMI index not withstanding) often outsells the American versions IN AMERICA despite deltas in the price.

Take your base Honda Civic vs. base Ford Focus. The the Focus is better equipped than the Civic and comes in about $1500 under in MSRP but the Civic kicks the Focus' ass in sales.

EDIT: Links to sales data of 2017 Honda Civics (nearly 315,000) vs. 2017 Ford Focus (around 160,000).

Last edited by vallor; 04-13-2018 at 06:42 PM..
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:00 PM   #1502
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You ignored my point and instead diverted it to a question of quality.
No, I directly addressed your point that they won't buy our product by showing you FACTS related to how our product is essentially the same as theirs (in quality and in parts/content), but we must pay higher duties, therefore it is a more expensive product. Can nobody read any more?
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:34 PM   #1503
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You're a liar or a moron (both is also an option!) if you don't recognize the damage done to the American automobile industry, and American workers, by the EU (10%) and Chinese (25%) tariffs on American automobiles when we only charge 2.5%.

Truly...a shilltastic idiot of the first degree. And this is one of more examples than you can clearly handle, since you're stuck with incomprehensibility at ONE.
You don't have to defend everything that comes out of Trump's mouth you know. You could not jump on board with an argument that is clearly one clause of a massive contract taken out of context.
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:44 PM   #1504
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You don't have to defend everything that comes out of Trump's mouth you know.
LOL. You don't know me if you think I give a shit about Trump.
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:58 PM   #1505
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LOL. You don't know me if you think I give a shit about Trump.
There is literally no reason to defend such a fully retarded position if it isn't related to partisan tribalism.

It is like arguing the sky isn't blue because Trump showed you a picture during a sunset and that is your evidence. Attacking one clause of a massive agreement without reviewing the rest makes the same amount of sense.

Also as an owner of an American car I have to say the quality seems a lot worse than our other car. This is anecdotal for sure, but so many aspects of it broke almost immediately. This is an older car though so maybe they have gotten their shit together.
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Old 04-13-2018, 08:06 PM   #1506
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Attacking one clause of a massive agreement without reviewing the rest makes the same amount of sense.
And you're a retarded ideologue who doesn't recognize what, as I have linked before, the ENTIRE EU recognizes...that China is abusing international trading partners, flouting international trade laws, and stealing trading partners' technology.

Automotive tariffs are one of an extended list of such abuses, and if you can't grasp the one, clearly you're too mentally defective the grasp the rest.
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Old 04-13-2018, 09:47 PM   #1507
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And you're a retarded ideologue who doesn't recognize what, as I have linked before, the ENTIRE EU recognizes...that China is abusing international trading partners, flouting international trade laws, and stealing trading partners' technology.
There are not 2 sides of this issue. Everyone recognizes that this is true.

That doesn't change the fact that Trump's argument is terrible and fundamentally deceptive.
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Old 04-13-2018, 10:22 PM   #1508
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No, I directly addressed your point that they won't buy our product by showing you FACTS related to how our product is essentially the same as theirs (in quality and in parts/content), but we must pay higher duties, therefore it is a more expensive product. Can nobody read any more?
LOL No.

You ignored:
1) Quality is NOT a factor
2) Where the car is built is not a factor (proven thanks to your own facts)
3) Price is apparently not a factor since we have a great sample size right in our own backyard.

People (through facts) overwhelmingly (2:1) buy the "import" cars despite prices IN AMERICA.

IN AMERICA where American cars are CHEAPER and of EQUAL OR BETTER QUALITY Americans choose to BUY IMPORT branded cars. IN AMERICA where the cars AMERICANS are choosing to buy MORE EXPENSIVE foreign cars than the similar American car.

IN AMERICA we are losing the car wars. 'MERICA.

Also, we know why people from other nations don't buy our cars. Cost is the least of the issues.

Among them are:
  1. The inability to adapt to the culture
  2. The poor fuel economy
  3. Poor design aesthetic
  4. The fact that many places across the world don't have the same dependency on cars that we have in the US
  5. And the appetite the US has for SUVs, Minivans, and Trucks that is fueling a lot of the US market is way different in Europe and Asia

So 2.5% or 25% it doesn't fucking matter. It's stupid to think just because we make something more expensive suddenly will spin the wheel.

We may as well just force people to buy American, that worked for the USSR? At least the VAZ, GAZ, and ZAZ were reliable even if some models were reportedly about as enjoyable to drive as cars with square tires.
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Old 04-14-2018, 06:22 AM   #1509
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1) Quality is NOT a factor
Not a factor in buying a car? Too stupid for words...

Quote:
2) Where the car is built is not a factor (proven thanks to your own facts)
Where the car is built is absolutely a factor in its final cost to the consumer, because it has to be shipped to the consumer's market. Too stupid for words...

Quote:
3) Price is apparently not a factor since we have a great sample size right in our own backyard.
Price is not a factor in car sales? Too stupid for words...

Quote:
IN AMERICA we are losing the car wars. 'MERICA.
You didn't read the sites, clearly. The top selling cars in America are actually built by Americans from mainly American parts despite their foreign corporate provenance. Now, try shipping that car to another market and see how much it costs and how little it sells.

Quote:
So 2.5% or 25% it doesn't fucking matter.
Price doesn't matter? Lololololol...okay then.

Quote:
We may as well just force people to buy American
This is stupid as well, because in America (unlike other markets where we ship our vehicles) it's almost impossible to determine what percentage of your car was made here or elsewhere based upon its make and model.

American cars had a quality problem in the 80s-00s, but not so any longer. In fact, guess who led the pack in recalls for several years running? Toyota/Lexus/Scion.

BTW: Read your own sources. As they say, "Thus, it’s clear that lowered sticker prices alone won’t coax Korean consumers into a Ford or Jeep." Clearly they recognize PRICE is an issue. It's not the only reason folks buy a particular car, but it will close the door on a sale at the outset.

Get with reality. Trade tariffs are problematic when selling a product thereby priced out of a market.
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Old 04-14-2018, 06:44 AM   #1510
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Lulz over everybody hating Comey:

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Old 04-14-2018, 11:02 AM   #1511
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Wow this place got quiet once Trump announced a missile strike via tweets.
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Old 04-14-2018, 03:46 PM   #1512
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Wow this place got quiet once Trump announced a missile strike via tweets.
Terran posted this morning you dunce.
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Old 04-14-2018, 04:26 PM   #1513
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Wow this place got quiet once Trump announced a missile strike via tweets.
What is this, a dig at Trump supporters who you think are somehow embarrassed that Trump actually followed through on his promises unlike Obama? Fish elsewhere.
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Old 04-14-2018, 05:02 PM   #1514
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The left's war on science...and yes indeed, it is the LEFT that is at war with science.

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Old 04-15-2018, 03:54 PM   #1515
vallor
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Too stupid for words...
Sometimes it seems you are unable to follow a post thread for longer than the most recent reply. We already discussed why those things are not a factor in this particular equation.

WITH ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL: Even Americans will STILL buy the more expensive FOREIGN brand car than the American car in the same category.

Quote:
You didn't read the sites, clearly. The top selling cars in America are actually built by Americans from mainly American parts despite their foreign corporate provenance. Now, try shipping that car to another market and see how much it costs and how little it sells.
If you read my sources foreign brands actually sell their cars quite well in their countries. The only reason they make cars here is because it is good for PR and it often to get around other taxes, fees, and tariffs on parts and so on.

Quote:
BTW: Read your own sources. As they say, "Thus, it’s clear that lowered sticker prices alone won’t coax Korean consumers into a Ford or Jeep." Clearly they recognize PRICE is an issue.
That is my ENTIRE THESIS. Proven time and again. Lower costs are not going to make our cars that much more palatable to these countries. Is it a factor? Sure, but it is one of the lesser factors which is why I provided half a dozen sources to back up my argument.

In addition I've shown the last time we implemented stiff tariffs our economy suffered more than it gained both when done under George Bush Jr. and when Nixon tried to do the same.

You have yet to show one shred of proof backing up any assertion:

1) There will be any significant surge of sales of American brand cars in any market

2) The economy will prosper as a result of these tariffs or the field will be leveled for the American worker, consumer, or the global economy at all, or even that China will get a sore nose (much less a bloody one)

I'm all for optimism but history and rah rah Trade Wars but seems like someone's doing uneducated stupid thinking here and it ain't me.
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:01 PM   #1516
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Wow this place got quiet once Trump announced a missile strike via tweets.
Is Assad an idiot or is this a false flag? Why poke America by using Chemical weapons when we're getting ready to leave? There are only three rules.

1) No Nukes
2) No Chemical Weapons
3) No laying waste to a bunch of civilians

Those three things will get the weight of the world crashing down upon you. Assad managed to go two years without doing any of those three (well supposedly he doesn't have #1) then he goes and does the second and third shortly after the US announces we're withdrawing?

Something smells fishy... did Putin put Assad up to this? Why would Putin want to rile up Trump (and obviously the UK and France) unless it's just a dick measuring contest? You'd think people would realize you don't want to rile up Donald "Big Hands, Big Button" Trump.
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:10 PM   #1517
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The left's war on science...and yes indeed, it is the LEFT that is at war with science.

Cool video, I love John Stossel. I watched the Paris Climate one as well. I can only imagine people who are bitching and moaning about leaving the agreement never bothered to look into it.
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Old 04-15-2018, 07:19 PM   #1518
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WITH ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL: Even Americans will STILL buy the more expensive FOREIGN brand car than the American car in the same category.
Incorrect. You just keep failing and flailing.

Best selling automobiles, 2017 (change from 2016):

Quote:
1. Ford F-Series (up 9. 3 percent)

2. Chevrolet Silverado (up 1.9 percent)

3. Ram pickup trucks (up 2.3 percent)

4. Toyota RAV4 (up 15.7 percent)

5. Nissan Rogue (up 22.3 percent)

6. Toyota Camry (down 0.4 percent)

7. Honda CR-V (up 5.8 percent)

8. Honda Civic (up 2.8 percent)

9. Toyota Corolla (down 13.0 percent)

10. Honda Accord (down 6.5 percent)
1. American
2. American
3. American
4. Built in Canada
5. Built in Tennessee
6. Built in Kentucky and Indiana
7. Built in Ohio
8. Built in Indiana
9. Built in Canada and Mississippi
10. Built in Ohio

So...BULLSHIT on you. Americans are building American made cars all over the top 10, and the top 3 are American companies to boot.

Quote:
The only reason they make cars here is because it is good for PR and it often to get around other taxes, fees, and tariffs on parts and so on.
Thank you for reiterating my point about tariffs and taxes. Appreciate it.

Quote:
That is my ENTIRE THESIS. Proven time and again. Lower costs are not going to make our cars that much more palatable to these countries.
Your thesis (on cars): A 25% higher price tag for an American made car is meaningless.
My thesis (on cars): A 25% higher price tag for an American made car is going to hurt the sales of American made cars.

One of us understands economics and protectionism. The other one is you.
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:08 AM   #1519
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Incorrect. You just keep failing and flailing.

1. American
2. American
3. American
4. Built in Canada
5. Built in Tennessee
6. Built in Kentucky and Indiana
7. Built in Ohio
8. Built in Indiana
9. Built in Canada and Mississippi
10. Built in Ohio

So...BULLSHIT on you. Americans are building American made cars all over the top 10, and the top 3 are American companies to boot.

Your thesis (on cars): A 25% higher price tag for an American made car is meaningless.
My thesis (on cars): A 25% higher price tag for an American made car is going to hurt the sales of American made cars.

One of us understands economics and protectionism. The other one is you.
One of us is good at reading comprehension and reasoning problems. The other one is you.

My thesis is (again) cost is only one of a number of factors, and not even the biggest factor in why American cars don't sell well in foreign countries. If not even Americans will buy American branded cars when they are cheaper (Ford, GM, Chevy) then how can we expect foreigners to make the decision to purchase those same brands? You have yet to provide a shred of proof against that argument.

In fact you continue to boost my argument! In one example from the same category of cars. The Honda Civic sales 2:1 over the Ford Focus in the US despite the Focus being over a thousand dollars (~$1,500 MSRP) cheaper and your own facts showing all other factors being equal. Americans don't buy the Ford Focus at thousands less than the Civic but we expect some Japanese person to do so even if we force the Japanese government to lower the tariff? Or we raise the price of the Civic even higher? How high is too high? We're just going to force people to ignore the Civic by pricing it out of their range?

7 of the top 10 cars sold in America are under a foreign company and the three that aren't are pickup trucks. This, is your proof the American car industry is awesome?

Btw, pickup trucks with a chassis size and utility can be undesired or even regulated overseas. If you bothered reading some of my links you will have seen in some EU countries having a vehicle exceed a certain weight (including passengers) or are used for towing requires a different license, which automatically puts some vehicles, like 3/4 ton pickups on a list of less desirable vehicles.

As for the other 7, being built in America is gaming the system and getting good PR. The business, design, the awards, the prestige and all the important shit - most importantly the dolla dolla billz - is all heading back over to Japan.

The fact you are happy we are getting the scraps the Japanese are throwing our way and see this as a thriving "American Auto Industry" is tragic. Simply having jobs is not a strong foundation for our auto industry.

Last edited by vallor; 04-16-2018 at 01:26 PM..
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Old 04-16-2018, 03:12 AM   #1520
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Is Assad an idiot or is this a false flag? Why poke America by using Chemical weapons when we're getting ready to leave? There are only three rules.

1) No Nukes
2) No Chemical Weapons
3) No laying waste to a bunch of civilians

Those three things will get the weight of the world crashing down upon you. Assad managed to go two years without doing any of those three (well supposedly he doesn't have #1) then he goes and does the second and third shortly after the US announces we're withdrawing?

Something smells fishy... did Putin put Assad up to this? Why would Putin want to rile up Trump (and obviously the UK and France) unless it's just a dick measuring contest? You'd think people would realize you don't want to rile up Donald "Big Hands, Big Button" Trump.
It's a false flag, Israel wants their war in Syria and wants to blame Russia for it.
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