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Old 10-03-2017, 03:06 PM   #1
VenomUSMC
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Vegas Shooting

What a terrible situation. Besides that, it seems a bit odd that there has yet to be a motive identified. From what I've seen it, appears there may have been a note left behind and there are claims that he video taped the event. I know ISIS is claiming responsibility, but that appears to be them trying to capitalize on the situation.

Of course we also have the immediate calls for gun control, most of which has zero to do with the event.
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Old 10-03-2017, 10:09 PM   #2
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I'm disappointed the first thing many people jumped on was the "Your thoughts and prayers don't mean shit" bandwagon and especially those who jumped into the fray with "it was white people at country music so probably republicans who voted Trump; no big loss". Only someone with an agenda to push or a heart of hate would start off their message with such disgusting rhetoric and anger while 60 bodies of sons and daughters lay chilling in the street.

For what it's worth they all have my thoughts and prayers. It was just today that the magnitude of loss passed through me well enough I felt I could talk about it coherently; I can't imagine what it is like to be a survivor or a family member to a survivor or victim. Much less demeaning the event with the bullshit gamesmanship some are doing.

All the crazy is coming out to claim this "victory" or "victimhood" for themselves.

- ISIS wants it to be them so they can get back in the news and scare up more recruits

- Liberals want it to be straight white male with scary scary guns to legitimize their anti-white, anti-male, and anti-gun agendas

- Antifa needs it to be anyone to the right of Bernie Sanders so they can be totally justified in their continued violence and um, let's call it "aggressive" protesting

- GOP lawmakers see this as another way to stick it to Trump and his agenda and campaign promises by shelving any pro-gun agenda he may have put forward, like silencers (already shelved by our friend Paul Ryan) and likely Nationwide Carry Reciprocity

- Alt Right want the rumor of antifa materials and letter to be right so it finally proves how far over the edge the alt-left is and it shows that they aren't always the bad guys here and not everyone Alt Right is a Nazi or KKK member with a favorite set to The Daily Stormer

- BLM needs to find some racial angle (hard to do when the shooter was white and the crowd was country music, which is why the whole "He may have been targeting another venue" narrative where more minorities would have been has been floated a few times now)

- Alt-Light, libertarians, regular conservatives, and classical liberals just hope this was a crazy dude, there aren't many more out there waiting to try and copy cat him, and no one uses this tragedy to politically or materially benefit from the deaths of 60 and the wounding of 600 more (too late for that I guess).

I have a hard time understanding how someone could have a soul so shriveled or twisted, for whatever reason, they feel the desire or need to do such a thing. I think others do too which is why they feel there MUST be a motive, but I think we'll find there isn't a real motive.

I think this will be on of those cases where people try to cobble something together but with the secrecy and the lack of transparency I get the sense the authorities are baffled. Normally we'd know at least a little concrete info by now. We will be told SOMETHING but I think it'll just be guesswork. Lone gunman, acted alone, was angry at the whole world for some non-specific thing... blah blah blah.

Last edited by vallor; 10-03-2017 at 10:19 PM..
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Old 10-04-2017, 06:59 AM   #3
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I think we'll find there isn't a real motive.
There's always a reason, but it may be no more than simple hatred combined with social isolation and a genetic legacy of violent insanity. It certainly won't be 'satisfying' or 'relieving' of the burden the impacted folks will carry into the future to find out more precisely what the motive is, whatever it may be.

These kinds of incidents are the ultimate refutation of secular progressive utopianism. The idea that humanity and human society is perfectable, if only given the right elite leadership and the proper implementation of progressive policies, has been given the lie repeatedly throughout history (with the twentieth century the bloodiest in ALL of human history). The Bible has the clearest, most accurate response to this and it is that every single person is at his or her core a fallen creature who is incapable of any lasting good without the grace of God changing one's heart and mind. Really, the surprise should be not in these incidents occurring, but in the incidents of grace and caring that occur far more frequently than one would expect given our essentially selfish nature.

tl;dr version: People are intrinsically evil, not good, but are capable of great good as well. News at 11.
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Old 10-04-2017, 09:00 AM   #4
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It's all very weird. This is not the typical crazy with a clear motive. He does not have a digital footprint, he apparently didn't leave any indication/log of what he was going to do. There were no journals etc. Isis released a photo of him transmitting through a webcam, but that could mean anything. There was, apparently, another person staying with him at the hotel, but the GF is in the Philippines.

I have a feeling that this is not a simple story of guy going crazy and shooting a bunch of people. I guess we will find out in the coming weeks.

Some guy on 4chan said that something like this was going to happen in September, to stay away from crowded places. That there will be a push for metal detectors on every building, or something. Weird conspiracies are popping up everywhere.
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Old 10-04-2017, 11:02 AM   #5
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It's all very weird. This is not the typical crazy with a clear motive. He does not have a digital footprint, he apparently didn't leave any indication/log of what he was going to do. There were no journals etc. Isis released a photo of him transmitting through a webcam, but that could mean anything. There was, apparently, another person staying with him at the hotel, but the GF is in the Philippines.

I have a feeling that this is not a simple story of guy going crazy and shooting a bunch of people. I guess we will find out in the coming weeks.

Some guy on 4chan said that something like this was going to happen in September, to stay away from crowded places. That there will be a push for metal detectors on every building, or something. Weird conspiracies are popping up everywhere.
Conspiracies aside it does scream red flag.
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Old 10-04-2017, 01:49 PM   #6
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it seems the response has been as predicted by the guy from 4chan, metal detectors everywhere.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...y-experts.html
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Old 10-04-2017, 05:43 PM   #7
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Sometimes people lose it. I think this guy either lost all his money gambling or had some big heist planned that went wrong and decided to go out like this. Remember his father was a big time bank robber. Who knows what kind of family life he had.

And his brother is hiding something. Its obvious in his interviews.

Fear the eternal Boomer, for they are hiding rage, beyond our comprehension.
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Old 10-04-2017, 05:48 PM   #8
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it seems the response has been as predicted by the guy from 4chan, metal detectors everywhere.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...y-experts.html
Yup, an even more low trust, atomized society. Not sustainable. This just creates more shooters. Its all one big fake, joke.

Start buying everything used, turn off your TV, turn off your facepage. Home school if possible. I think the system will have to come down before anything can be fixed.
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Old 10-04-2017, 07:25 PM   #9
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Bump stocks will now forever be banned. If we get away with just that as the result the American people who cherish the 2nd A should breath a sigh of relief. But even that, IMO, is too much.

It's better than the alternative many are calling for...
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Old 10-04-2017, 08:21 PM   #10
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Bump stocks will be gone, but even as a 2A supporter, I don't care. They're clearly only useful to skirt the law against fully automatic weaponry, taking the weapon as close as you can get to being full auto and still legal. Besides, with the cost of ammo nowadays, I for one don't want to be blowing through it like that at the range.

One trigger pull, one shot is good enough for me. I just hope they don't give ANY more ground than that.
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Old 10-07-2017, 01:23 AM   #11
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Apparently the FBI may have lied about when he checked in. This whole incident is sounding more and more false flag inside job by the second. Hey Democrats, we're not giving you our guns. Kindly all of you die in a fire, k thx.
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Old 10-07-2017, 07:09 AM   #12
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Bump stocks will now forever be banned. If we get away with just that as the result the American people who cherish the 2nd A should breath a sigh of relief. But even that, IMO, is too much.

It's better than the alternative many are calling for...
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Bump stocks will be gone, but even as a 2A supporter, I don't care. They're clearly only useful to skirt the law against fully automatic weaponry, taking the weapon as close as you can get to being full auto and still legal. Besides, with the cost of ammo nowadays, I for one don't want to be blowing through it like that at the range.

One trigger pull, one shot is good enough for me. I just hope they don't give ANY more ground than that.
I don't agree that Americans who cherish the 2nd Amendment should breathe a sigh of relief. The first time I ever saw someone bump fire, it was a friend of mine using his belt loop and an M1 Garand -- a WW2 era rifle. There are a plethora of videos illustrating how to make a firearm bump fire with a rubber band or shoelace. Bump firing was done long before bump fire stocks came around, remaining legal per the ATF because it remains a semi-automatic firearm.

So, what will this ban accomplish? In the end, nothing. This meaningless sacrifice will do nothing to appease those looking to cause a ban, it's just another chipping away at gun rights.

While the monster that carried out the Vegas massacre did seem insane, he doesn't appear stupid. Does anyone really think a ban on the sale of bump fire stocks would have prevented this guy from committing this act of evil?


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Old 10-07-2017, 07:47 AM   #13
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So, what will this ban accomplish? In the end, nothing.
I disagree. It's quite possible, if the Republicans are wise on this (lol...we shall see, lol) that they may get Dems to swallow a poison pill with the elimination of bump stocks in the form of national ccw reciprocity. That's if legislation is needed, which may not be the case if the ATF just rules the attachment is illegal under current law (something Obama's ATF did not do, interestingly enough).

Regardless of other methods of increasing rate of fire, the law doesn't allow fully automatic fire and most Americans, myself included, are perfectly fine with that; to allow an attachment that makes near automatic rates of fire easily achievable is simply a workaround of that prior law, regardless of whether jury-rigged alternatives are possible or not.

Also, politics is very much about the achievable and feasible. You take what you can get, and right now even the NRA recognizes that bump stocks are indefensible. They're not part of the cake. They're a means for adding back a piece of the cake that had already been taken away by the agreement of most Americans, myself included. Fully automatic firing is unnecessary to self-defense and/or hunting and/or sport shooting. You can disagree, but you're just plain wrong and in the tiniest of minorities to approve of fully automatic fire being legal.
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Old 10-07-2017, 08:41 AM   #14
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I disagree. It's quite possible, if the Republicans are wise on this (lol...we shall see, lol) that they may get Dems to swallow a poison pill with the elimination of bump stocks in the form of national ccw reciprocity. That's if legislation is needed, which may not be the case if the ATF just rules the attachment is illegal under current law (something Obama's ATF did not do, interestingly enough).
The ATF does not need new legislation to ban the bump fire stocks. This is evident from their flip-flopping stances on pistol braces, they simply release determination letters which say they've decided that a bump fire stock does change the firearm.

Republicans, generally speaking, have no interest in maintaining 2nd Amendment rights. Paul Ryan reportedly shelved national reciprocity before the Vegas shooting every occurred:
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During the September 7 of Armed American Radio with Mark Walters, Rep. Thomas Massie (R-KY) said his concealed carry legislation is stalled because Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wisc.) does not want Congress to touch it.
National reciprocity legislation—H.R. 38—would treat concealed carry permits like driver’s licenses, making a permit from one state valid in the other 49. Massie is the sponsor of H.R. 2909, which covers a blind spot in the national reciprocity legislation by mandating that Washington DC recognize concealed carry permits from all 50 states.

H.R. 38 was introduced in Congress on January 3, 2017, and HR 2909 was introduced in June, following the attack on GOP Congressmen at Congressional Baseball Practice. But both bills are currently languishing in Congress.

Mark Walters asked Massie about the lack of movement on national reciprocity, and Massie said, “The Speaker told me he didn’t think the timing was right.” An exasperated Massie then added, “But this is the exact time to bring this bill. So it is frustrating for me.”
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Regardless of other methods of increasing rate of fire, the law doesn't allow fully automatic fire and most Americans, myself included, are perfectly fine with that; to allow an attachment that makes near automatic rates of fire easily achievable is simply a workaround of that prior law, regardless of whether jury-rigged alternatives are possible or not.
The law does allow fully automatic fire. A U.S. citizen, assuming they can pass a background check, can buy an actual machine gun today. There are approx. 180,000 legally owned machine guns in private hands across the US. When people say machine guns are banned (a firearm which fires more than 1 round per trigger pull, which a bump fire is not), they're wrong.


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Also, politics is very much about the achievable and feasible. You take what you can get, and right now even the NRA recognizes that bump stocks are indefensible. They're not part of the cake. They're a means for adding back a piece of the cake that had already been taken away by the agreement of most Americans, myself included. Fully automatic firing is unnecessary to self-defense and/or hunting and/or sport shooting. You can disagree, but you're just plain wrong and in the tiniest of minorities to approve of fully automatic fire being legal.
I agree that politics is about what is achievable and feasible. Was national CCW not achievable and feasible with a Republican controlled House, Senate, and Presidency? At face value, it seemed it was -- but it doesn't seem so with the lack of interest by those like Ryan.

The 2A has zero to do with hunting, sport shooting, or even protection from everyday criminals -- it's about the fear of a tyrannical government. Therefore, the bump fire stocks are part of the cake.
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Old 10-07-2017, 09:25 AM   #15
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The ATF does not need new legislation to ban the bump fire stocks.
Exactly, as I said.

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Republicans, generally speaking, have no interest in maintaining 2nd Amendment rights.
Patently false. Evidence? Elect Democrats instead and see what happens to gun/2A rights.

Quote:
The law does allow fully automatic fire. A U.S. citizen, assuming they can pass a background check, can buy an actual machine gun today.
Grandfathered, from 1986. All new (subsequent to 1986) fully automatic weapons are illegal for civilians. Obtaining one is extremely expensive and difficult as well.

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Was national CCW not achievable and feasible with a Republican controlled House, Senate, and Presidency?
Very little is achievable with a Republican Congress and White House, lol...but what can NOT be achieved by Democrats (with Repubs in the majority) is often just as, if not more so, important...a conservative SCOTUS appointment, eliminated regulations, enforcement of immigration laws rather than ignoring them, etc. The problem, of course, is that the VAST majority of DC politicians are members of a uniparty approach to most of the really meaningful issues of the day. The GOPe and RINOs are better than Dems on some issues, but on most they're all anti-average-American globalists.

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The 2A has zero to do with hunting, sport shooting, or even protection from everyday criminals -- it's about the fear of a tyrannical government.
As I said: " Fully automatic firing is unnecessary to self-defense..." whether the threat is the government or an individual.

It's not part of your current 'cake' because it's been disallowed on new weapons for thirty-one years. Enforcing that rule by disallowing bump stocks restores the status quo, it does not shrink the cake.

You can be a 2A absolutist all you like, but you've lost this one already. Even the NRA has conceded bump stocks are gone. The only remaining question is whether there's anything else on the way, for the worse or better.
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Old 10-07-2017, 09:52 AM   #16
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Exactly, as I said.
No, here is what you exactly said:
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That's if legislation is needed, which may not be the case if the ATF just rules the attachment is illegal under current law (something Obama's ATF did not do, interestingly enough).
What I was doing was providing evidence that it wasn't a question of if, or that it may not be the case -- recent decisions by the ATF unequivocally show it's not the case.

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Patently false. Evidence? Elect Democrats instead and see what happens to gun/2A rights.
As covered in my previous post, the disinterested in pursuing national reciprocity. Also the cake comic includes evidence of Republican support for the further restriction of the 2A. While I agree that Democrats certainly work harder to restrict/remove 2A rights, that doesn't mean Republicans, as a whole, are interested. Why didn't the Republican party demand national reciprocity be brought to a vote? So, no, it's not patently false, as the history of the 2A objectively shows Republicans (to include Reagan) have supported further and further restrictions.


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Grandfathered, from 1986. All new (subsequent to 1986) fully automatic weapons are illegal for civilians. Obtaining one is extremely expensive and difficult as well.
No, there are legal means for civilians to continue to own new automatic firearms. A friend just recently purchased a fully automatic SCAR 16, a firearm develop long after the so-called ban. The way he did this was because his civilian business that does not offer protective services, carryout out any sort of government contracts and the like has licensing that allows for it (it's how you can go to certain ranges and rent new machines gun shoot). Obtaining one legally can be expensive for an individual, but it's not difficult. Obtaining one illegally is not difficult.



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Very little is achievable with a Republican Congress and White House, lol...but what can NOT be achieved by Democrats (with Repubs in the majority) is often just as, if not more so, important...a conservative SCOTUS appointment, eliminated regulations, enforcement of immigration laws rather than ignoring them, etc. The problem, of course, is that the VAST majority of DC politicians are members of a uniparty approach to most of the really meaningful issues of the day. The GOPe and RINOs are better than Dems on some issues, but on most they're all anti-average-American globalists.
I agree little is achievable with a R controlled Congress and WH, and that's my point. If Rs were, generally speaking, pro-2A, that would not be the case. The vast majority of politicians being a member of the uniparty is also part of my message.

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As I said: " Fully automatic firing is unnecessary to self-defense..." whether the threat is the government or an individual.
And I disagree, so does the DHS, the military, etc. DHS sought to purchase 7,000 fully automatic AR-15 type rifles for the purpose of "personnel defense."

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It's not part of your current 'cake' because it's been disallowed on new weapons for thirty-one years. Enforcing that rule by disallowing bump stocks restores the status quo, it does not shrink the cake.

You can be a 2A absolutist all you like, but you've lost this one already. Even the NRA has conceded bump stocks are gone. The only remaining question is whether there's anything else on the way, for the worse or better.
Are people looking to take something away? Yes, then it's part of the cake. Bump firing was the status quo, just people didn't care until it became involved in a high-profile case.

The NRA has folded on many things, so what? There is always gun control looming, with or without a terrible event, and those pursuing the eradication of the 2A will happily take any step, regardless how small, in that direction.

If one wants to argue that bump fire stocks made this massacre possible, then why not argue that magazines beyond 10 rounds and the AR platform itself did as well? Some already are.

For anyone here with a bump fire stock, now seems like the time to sell -- with some reportedly going for over $700.
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Old 10-07-2017, 10:37 AM   #17
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...recent decisions by the ATF unequivocally show it's not the case.
Incorrect.

Every administration's 'bureaucracy' gets to interpret the laws as they see fit. It's one of the wonders of our system, lol. They may well interpret the current regulations completely opposite to that of Obama's admin, or they may not. There is nothing 'unequivocal' about what their decision will be. Only time will tell if it takes a reversal from the bureaucracy of the interpretation of the rule, or new legislation. Or both, lol. The only way to ensure administrations don't reverse interpretations of laws is to write them in ways that don't allow for such reinterpretations, so legislation may be necessary.

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As covered in my previous post, the disinterested in pursuing national reciprocity.
Time will tell. There's more opportunity for it to happen now than there has been in two decades.

Quote:
Also the cake comic includes evidence of Republican support for the further restriction of the 2A.
I don't take comics as 'evidence' of anything but a funny approach to a topic.

Quote:
While I agree that Democrats certainly work harder to restrict/remove 2A rights, that doesn't mean Republicans, as a whole, are interested. Why didn't the Republican party demand national reciprocity be brought to a vote?
Federalism for some...states rights trumping the power of the federal government to impose uniformity. Why didn't Democrats pass immigration reform when they ran the show? Because they hate immigrants? LOL. Politics is the art of the possible. They can only do so much at a time. We shall see.

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Republicans (to include Reagan) have supported further and further restrictions.
Patently false. FFS, look at the damned maps related to gun rights and you'll see a continual loosening of restrictions and a continual widening of gun rights, all directly related to state/local legislation and federal judicial appointments and subsequent court decisions. This is indisputable. Your rights to carry a firearm are more secure today than they were two decades ago.


Quote:
No, there are legal means for civilians to continue to own new automatic firearms.
I don't know about your friend, but the law says otherwise.

Quote:
If Rs were, generally speaking, pro-2A, that would not be the case.
If Rs were anti-2A you'd know it and 2A rights would not have expanded as they have over the past two decades.

Quote:
And I disagree
And so does the government and its agencies. Well, good luck with that. You're on the fringe. You'll never succeed in re-legalizing civilian ownership of fully automatic weaponry for post-1986 firearms, but you're welcome to try.

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Bump firing was the status quo, just people didn't care until it became involved in a high-profile case.
So bump firing was an example of 2A supporters pretending to give away a part of their cake when they actually weren't, lol.

If it's still legal for new purchases by this time next year I'd be highly surprised. Perhaps even the end of this calendar year. Better eat that cake fast. You're losing a piece you pretended to give up. Your comic will need editing, too...not so one sided now, it would seem.

Quote:
The NRA has folded on many things, so what?
So, you state that Republicans are terrible on 2A support, then you declare that the NRA bailing on defending bump stocks isn't meaningful? Can't have it both ways. The NRA is THE political pressure point on 2A rights. If they give cover to Republicans to kill something in that arena, it'll be DEAD before you know it. And they already have...

Quote:
If one wants to argue that bump fire stocks made this massacre possible
Higher rate of fire in the 72-ish minutes it took to take him out means more bullets spraying/killing folks. It did indeed make this massacre more of a massacre than otherwise possible.

Quote:
For anyone here with a bump fire stock, now seems like the time to sell -- with some reportedly going for over $700.
Indeed. Sellers market.
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Old 10-07-2017, 12:17 PM   #18
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I think what's more interesting is you guys are going on about bumpstocks when this whole situation is likely a phony gun grab attempt to begin with.
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Old 10-07-2017, 12:47 PM   #19
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Incorrect.

Every administration's 'bureaucracy' gets to interpret the laws as they see fit. It's one of the wonders of our system, lol. They may well interpret the current regulations completely opposite to that of Obama's admin, or they may not. There is nothing 'unequivocal' about what their decision will be. Only time will tell if it takes a reversal from the bureaucracy of the interpretation of the rule, or new legislation. Or both, lol. The only way to ensure administrations don't reverse interpretations of laws is to write them in ways that don't allow for such reinterpretations, so legislation may be necessary.
The ATF has illustrated that they do not need Congress to pass a law in order to declare an accessory illegal by virtue of claiming it alters the classification of the firearm. Under the previous administration, the braces saw different declarations from the ATF. I agree that the only way to ensure such a thing doesn't happen is via legislation, however that doesn't change the fact that the ATF has already been seen acting without the passing of a law to conclude something they deemed legal to be illegal and vice versa.
Another example was the ATF stance on shoestrings, where the agency in 2004 determined that a looped shoestring was indeed a machine gun:

Later, in 2007, the ATF reversed its stance, noting that a shoestring with loops was not a machine gun:


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Time will tell. There's more opportunity for it to happen now than there has been in two decades.
I agree.

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I don't take comics as 'evidence' of anything but a funny approach to a topic.
I was talking about the laws passed that are cited in the comic.

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Federalism for some...states rights trumping the power of the federal government to impose uniformity. Why didn't Democrats pass immigration reform when they ran the show? Because they hate immigrants? LOL. Politics is the art of the possible. They can only do so much at a time. We shall see.
While I agree politics are part of it, what exactly have the Republicans really done? The ACA remains, save some executive action from the Trump admin, and it doesn't seem like tax reform has gone somewhere. Was the only reason to elect Rs over Ds to slow the damage, or was it in hopes of actually making some sort of changes?


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Patently false. FFS, look at the damned maps related to gun rights and you'll see a continual loosening of restrictions and a continual widening of gun rights, all directly related to state/local legislation and federal judicial appointments and subsequent court decisions. This is indisputable. Your rights to carry a firearm are more secure today than they were two decades ago.
It's not patently false, per objective history. Yes, the right to carry a handgun has expanded, a point of which I have not disputed, but have the 2A rights of Americans expanded over the last few decades? No.

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Originally Posted by Terran View Post
I don't know about your friend, but the law says otherwise.
Actually, this says otherwise. Look at some of these rentals. The KRISS Vector was designed in 2006, produced in 2009, available to rent there in a fully automatic configuration. What the link you provided references is individual ownership, not total civilian ownership as I mentioned. That range linked is also in the Democratic People's Republic of Maryland by the way.


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Originally Posted by Terran View Post
If Rs were anti-2A you'd know it and 2A rights would not have expanded as they have over the past two decades.
I think this boils down to what I think amounts to differing views of the 2A. Being able to carry a handgun more places doesn't mean the 2A has expanded, when they've already greatly reduced it.



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And so does the government and its agencies. Well, good luck with that. You're on the fringe. You'll never succeed in re-legalizing civilian ownership of fully automatic weaponry for post-1986 firearms, but you're welcome to try.
Well, as described to you earlier, it's already legal. However, I've never argued that I would get it expanded back to the way it was pre-86.


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Originally Posted by Terran View Post
So bump firing was an example of 2A supporters pretending to give away a part of their cake when they actually weren't, lol.

If it's still legal for new purchases by this time next year I'd be highly surprised. Perhaps even the end of this calendar year. Better eat that cake fast. You're losing a piece you pretended to give up. Your comic will need editing, too...not so one sided now, it would seem.
I'm not an NRA member for a reason. Further restricting of firearms for private ownership is further taking of the cake. You know this isn't going to stop the push for pulling back further and further. Unlike Rs, it seems that Ds are more willing to fall on their swords to push their policies.



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Originally Posted by Terran View Post
So, you state that Republicans are terrible on 2A support, then you declare that the NRA bailing on defending bump stocks isn't meaningful? Can't have it both ways. The NRA is THE political pressure point on 2A rights. If they give cover to Republicans to kill something in that arena, it'll be DEAD before you know it. And they already have...
I don't think the NRA is a great organization. No, I don't think their bailing is meaningful -- and it's already costing them. This is likely a reason why Wayne is trying to push that they didn't call for a ban. While I agree that the NRA, by virtue of being the biggest groups, is the main point of pressure, I'm not sure it'll continue that way. It's not an attempt to have it both ways, the NRA has been getting criticized by people who are pro-2A for awhile now.

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Higher rate of fire in the 72-ish minutes it took to take him out means more bullets spraying/killing folks. It did indeed make this massacre more of a massacre than otherwise possible.
He reportedly fired for 9-11 minutes, not 72. Do you feel that ARs enabled this, magazines with a greater than 10 round capacity also enabled this? Would you suggest we ban those as well for politics points, which will probably not count for anything?

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Originally Posted by SpectralThundr View Post
I think what's more interesting is you guys are going on about bumpstocks when this whole situation is likely a phony gun grab attempt to begin with.
With the amount of leaks in the government and its general disorganization, I don't believe this is a false flag.
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Many cultures of the world marry girls off after their first menses, around 13 years old. I can't say that's inherently immoral, no.
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Old 10-07-2017, 12:59 PM   #20
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With the amount of leaks in the government and its general disorganization, I don't believe this is a false flag.
I have a hard time believing this guy brought all those guns in with zero lobby footage of it, never mind all the other eyebrow raising on this particular incident. and managed to shoot that many people alone. Odds are this was a CIA type of deal and the "shooter" was dead before a shot was ever fired.

The MSM has been running a Russian collusion angle for a year now with no evidence yet keep pounding away at that fake narrative, yet we have little to no information in this case on anything at all. No video footage, dishonest check in dates, etc etc.

If this entire situation doesn't sound fishy to you I dunno what to tell ya.
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