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Old 02-27-2018, 09:37 AM   #81
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I guess I'm just looking for a straighter answer out of you.
You got one. Tough shit if you don't like it. You want me to legislate further restrictions? Not happening. Current law already restricts 2A rights substantially.
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Old 02-27-2018, 09:41 AM   #82
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You got one. Tough shit if you don't like it. You want me to legislate further restrictions? Not happening. Current law already restricts 2A rights substantially.
I'm not asking you to legislate further restrictions. I'm asking you what restrictions you think are reasonable or necessary.

By repeating, "...shall not be infringed", you're implying that you think there should be no restrictions whatsoever on the second amendment. Is this correct?
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Old 02-27-2018, 09:46 AM   #83
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Asked and answered, asked and answered, ad nauseum.

The Second Amendment is currently the most highly regulated of all constitutional rights. Progress in rolling that back has been occurring nationwide for several decades now. You want a list of acceptable infringements on the Second Amendment? Make one yourself. That's not my job.
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Old 02-27-2018, 09:50 AM   #84
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Asked and answered, asked and answered, ad nauseum.

The Second Amendment is currently the most highly regulated of all constitutional rights. Progress in rolling that back has been occurring nationwide for several decades now. You want a list of acceptable infringements on the Second Amendment? Make one yourself. That's not my job.
I'm just asking what you think is reasonable or acceptable.
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Old 02-27-2018, 09:58 AM   #85
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Welcome to my "Whimbrel is a douchebag progressive" post!

Hey Whimbrel, thank you for allowing me free rental space in your head!



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Old 02-27-2018, 10:04 AM   #86
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What I think is immaterial, considering how little any of our opinions really matter in the scheme of things. Nobody cares what we think here.
If you believed that, you wouldn't spend so much time arguing so vehemently. We care what we think here. Otherwise, we wouldn't bother with it at all.

As such, I'm asking what you think is reasonable or acceptable.

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That's why I'm joining the NRA, as is my wife. Advocacy!
It could be worth it for the free insurance, I suppose.
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Old 02-27-2018, 10:08 AM   #87
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I'll bite. The 2nd amendment was written to protect against tyranny. A state devolves into tyranny usually (I believe) through the state's police. Therefore I think citizens should have access to the same weapons as the police. That may seem crazy and I'm not saying that there shouldn't be regulations and even some roadblocks but the right should be there.
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Old 02-27-2018, 10:10 AM   #88
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If you believed that, you wouldn't spend so much time arguing so vehemently.
Is that the only option for arguing here? It can't be because I enjoy seeing progressives melt down?

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We care what we think here. Otherwise, we wouldn't bother with it at all.
I don't think you're a collective spokesperson. Are you?

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As such, I'm asking what you think is reasonable or acceptable.
Check the NRA's website. They have a list of suggestions. Concealed carry reciprocity is a good start.

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It could be worth it for the free insurance, I suppose.
I don't need it for insurance or affiliated business programs, though I will be taking names of companies who virtue signal by cutting ties. They won't get my business.
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Old 02-27-2018, 11:08 AM   #89
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Is that the only option for arguing here? It can't be because I enjoy seeing progressives melt down?
I think you care a little more than you let on. Otherwise, you're just admitting to being a gigantic troll.

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I don't think you're a collective spokesperson. Are you?
I certainly can't claim to speak for everyone here. With that being said, the amount of passion behind virtually all of the arguments leads me to believe that the people here care about what the community thinks. If they didn't, we wouldn't have countless pages upon pages of text, anger, and vitriol.

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Check the NRA's website. They have a list of suggestions. Concealed carry reciprocity is a good start.
If I wanted to know what the NRA thought, I'd ask the NRA. I'm asking what you think. I want to know your thoughts on the matter.
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Old 02-27-2018, 11:16 AM   #90
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Otherwise, you're just admitting to being a gigantic troll.
LOL. Caught me.

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With that being said, the amount of passion behind virtually all of the arguments leads me to believe that the people here care about what the community thinks.
I don't see it that way, but okay.

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If I wanted to know what the NRA thought, I'd ask the NRA. I'm asking what you think. I want to know your thoughts on the matter.
I've already told you what I think. Repeatedly. You just don't like the answer.
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Old 02-27-2018, 11:21 AM   #91
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I've already told you what I think. Repeatedly. You just don't like the answer.
No, I just think it's a bullshit non-answer that enables you to not actually say anything. I'm asking for specifics and you're giving me generalities while trying to point in directions other than yourself for vague answers. You're dancing around the question.

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I'll bite. The 2nd amendment was written to protect against tyranny. A state devolves into tyranny usually (I believe) through the state's police. Therefore I think citizens should have access to the same weapons as the police. That may seem crazy and I'm not saying that there shouldn't be regulations and even some roadblocks but the right should be there.
On paper, this makes sense...but, it ultimately doesn't hold much weight. Realistically, any governmental tyranny would come down from the military (not just the police) and keeping up with that particular organization would prove to be extremely difficult. Hell, even fighting your average National Guard unit would be pretty damn tough.

If we're going to use the "combating tyranny" argument, we'd have to open up the definition of "Arms" to include...well, pretty much everything out there.
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Old 02-27-2018, 11:43 AM   #92
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I'm asking for specifics and you're giving me generalities
The Second Amendment is quite specific, as I have been. If you want a legislative road map, you're barking up the wrong tree. You can lay out your own road map to restrictions (failure, lol) if you wish, as can others.
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Old 02-27-2018, 11:58 AM   #93
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The Second Amendment is quite specific, as I have been.
You've been nothing but vague; every time I ask a specific question, you give a general answer.

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If you want a legislative road map, you're barking up the wrong tree.
I'm not asking for a legislative road map. I'm asking a specific question: Do you think average citizens should have easy access to automatic rifles, such as the M16A4?

It's a simple "yes" or "no".
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Old 02-27-2018, 12:02 PM   #94
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I guess I'm just looking for a straighter answer out of you. Drawing the line"As widely and as freely as possible" doesn't really say anything, nor does it address the very real issue we're currently facing in this country. How "wide and free" is this line and what do you feel would be reasonable restrictions and/or control?

I'd like to know where you draw the line. Do you think people should actually be allowed to own and carry automatic firearms with little to no hassle? Statements such as repeating "Shall not be infringed" and "It's not my job to explain to others how much they can infringe on a delineated constitutional right" gives the impression that you carry a laissez-faire attitude in regards to gun control.

It feels like you're dancing around giving an actual answer.
He gave you a straight answer, "this right is not to be infringed" I'm not sure what is so confusing about that. There are plenty of countries with restricted gun laws. You and the rest of the commies can move there if you'd so like.
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Old 02-27-2018, 12:08 PM   #95
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No, I just think it's a bullshit non-answer that enables you to not actually say anything. I'm asking for specifics and you're giving me generalities while trying to point in directions other than yourself for vague answers. You're dancing around the question.



On paper, this makes sense...but, it ultimately doesn't hold much weight. Realistically, any governmental tyranny would come down from the military (not just the police) and keeping up with that particular organization would prove to be extremely difficult. Hell, even fighting your average National Guard unit would be pretty damn tough.

If we're going to use the "combating tyranny" argument, we'd have to open up the definition of "Arms" to include...well, pretty much everything out there.
I’ll have to do some digging when I have time but I don’t believe this is historically true. Tyranny is usually enacted via the local policing of people. As far as all out war with the military (which I would not expect to ever actually happen,) yes we’d be severely outgunned but even then, we’d essentially be a massive and fairly well armed guerilla army fighting on our very own soil. If it actually came down to that, it wouldn’t be the easy fight you’re implying. It would certainly be enough to make any would be tyrant think twice.
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Old 02-27-2018, 12:10 PM   #96
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Do you think average citizens should have easy access to automatic rifles, such as the M16A4?
"Shall not be infringed." It's been infringed enough.

This has been repeated over and over and over. Did you burn your fingers on the stove a whole lot as a kid?
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Old 02-27-2018, 12:31 PM   #97
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He gave you a straight answer, "this right is not to be infringed" I'm not sure what is so confusing about that. There are plenty of countries with restricted gun laws.
He was dancing around the question with a handydandy response that doesn't actually answer the question being asked.

I'd posit the same question to you: Do you think it's a good idea for the average citizen to have access to automatic rifles, such as the M16A4?

It's easy to repeat, "...shall not be infringed" instead of giving a real answer. What do you think? I'm legitimately curious.

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You and the rest of the commies can move there if you'd so like.
If you had been keeping up, you would have noticed I'm a pro-2nd Amendment gun owner. I also think it's worth exploring the idea of doing something to keep certain forms of firearms off the streets or, if nothing else, away from people who shouldn't have them in the first place.

I don't want to give up what I've got, but I'm not sure if the average citizen needs to have access to certain weaponry.

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"Shall not be infringed." It's been infringed enough.

This has been repeated over and over and over. Did you burn your fingers on the stove a whole lot as a kid?
No, I just wanted a straight "yes" or "no". This is close enough, I suppose. You apparently think its a great idea for the average US citizen to have easy access to automatic rifles. That's all I wanted to see.

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I’ll have to do some digging when I have time but I don’t believe this is historically true. Tyranny is usually enacted via the local policing of people. As far as all out war with the military (which I would not expect to ever actually happen,) yes we’d be severely outgunned but even then, we’d essentially be a massive and fairly well armed guerilla army fighting on our very own soil. If it actually came down to that, it wouldn’t be the easy fight you’re implying. It would certainly be enough to make any would be tyrant think twice.
Historically, you may very well be correct. Looking at the way the modern police force is structured in the US, I think the actual enforcment would have to come down to the military or national guard. Most of the police forces in the US are paid for by - and directly work for - the local city, county and states they operate out of, not the national government. Getting all of the individual police forces in line would prove to be difficult, I think.

In our case, I think it would ultimately come down to the military or National Guard because of this.

If it ever came down to all our war (which I also don't think would ever happen), a well-armed guerilla force would never be able to compete with the likes of drone strikes, missle barrages and the sort of hell the military/air force/navy could rain down. With that being said...it would probably end up looking an awful lot like what our conflicts in the Middle East looks like now if it ever happened.
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Old 02-27-2018, 01:20 PM   #98
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If it ever came down to all our war (which I also don't think would ever happen), a well-armed guerilla force would never be able to compete with the likes of drone strikes, missle barrages and the sort of hell the military/air force/navy could rain down. With that being said...it would probably end up looking an awful lot like what our conflicts in the Middle East looks like now if it ever happened.
That's the thing. I don't think it comes to all out war. Drone strikes are fine in taking out individual targets but in a massive guerrilla campaign, they won't be as effective. Missile barrages are the same. Plus with both, you're destroying the very area you are trying to subdue and likely just winning more support for the guerrillas as they see their neighbors getting killed by their own government. I think this is part of why this comes from the police historically. You want the people subdued, not obliterated and the police traditionally deal with these pockets of locals anyway. The military doesn't usually deal with their own citizens. Enacting strict rule over your own nation is not the same as going into another nation and wiping them out. I'm not saying that the guerrilla force would win. I'm just saying that they make the would be tyrant much less likely to try.
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Old 02-27-2018, 01:42 PM   #99
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That's all I wanted to see.
Then you're a blind illiterate, because I've been posting the same response repeatedly, lol. "Shall not be infringed."

You're not a supporter of the Second Amendment if you don't actually support the Second Amendment. You support a pseudo-amendment that doesn't exist while the real thing gets 'infringed' all the time.

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Do you think it's a good idea
You don't get to decide what is or is not a "good idea" regarding clearly delineated constitutional rights.

Good luck.
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Old 02-27-2018, 02:04 PM   #100
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Then you're a blind illiterate, because I've been posting the same response repeatedly, lol. "Shall not be infringed."
I guess it was asking too much for you to think a little critically on the matter within a modern context. "Arms" means something quite a bit different than it did when the Constitution was drafted and it technically encompasses a great many things.

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You're not a supporter of the Second Amendment if you don't actually support the Second Amendment. You support a pseudo-amendment that doesn't exist while the real thing gets 'infringed' all the time.
I sure as hell do support the Second Amendment. I support it each and every time I buy a new firearm, too. I'm also acutely aware of the fact that not every form of armament is not necessarily fit to be in the hands of the average civilian.

If you want to get technical, destructive devices (such as grenades, etc) would be classifiable as "Arms", but they aren't typically legal for average people to own. I'm okay with knowing that the Average Joe can't have live grenades for their grenade launcher (which they can, in fact, own legally).

I'm not calling for an outright gun ban, nor would I be jumping for joy if the process of legally buying a new gun became exceptionally difficult (which it isn't, by and large; it's typically a 15-minute process).

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You don't get to decide what is or is not a "good idea" regarding clearly delineated constitutional rights.
No...but, I was still interested in hearing your personal take on a few specific examples. Of course, "Shall not be infringed" is your stand-in for "yes", in these cases.
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