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Old 11-27-2017, 05:49 PM   #1
Emabulator
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Epic Games Sues Minor In Lawsuit Against Fortnite Cheaters, Mother Responds


Game Informer has the story.

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Epic Games said it wasn't going to let Fornite cheaters slide, and last month, it proved just that by filing lawsuits against people who allegedly helped people cheat in its free-to-play game. Today, a letter to the the U.S. District Court Eastern District of North Carolina revealed that one of those individuals is a minor. The mother of Caleb "Sky Orbit" Rogers wrote a letter informing the court of the age of her 14-year-old son, saying Epic broke Delaware law by revealing a minor's name publicly in its suit. In it, she also writes that she never gave consent for her child to participate in Fortnite, which Epic requires for the game.

The letter also states that Caleb gained the cheats from a public website and livestreamed it, thus Epic should be going after the website and not her son. Epic Games also cannot prove her son modified the game in any way himself, as the lawsuit alleges. She also brings Fortnite's Battle Royale's free-to-play status into the discussion, saying this makes it impossible to prove her son caused any "profit loss" and states since no purchase occurred her son is off the hook. "Epic Games Inc failed to legally bind underage users with their EULA agreement, which is a contract between the licensor and purchaser, establishing the purchasers' right to use the software. This being said, the game itself was in-fact free. No purchase of said game occurred,” she states.

...

We reached out to Epic Games for a comment to clarify its position, to which we received this response:

“This particular lawsuit arose as a result of the defendant filing a DMCA counterclaim to a takedown notice on a YouTube video that exposed and promoted Fortnite Battle Royale cheats and exploits. Under these circumstances, the law requires that we file suit or drop the claim. Epic is not okay with ongoing cheating or copyright infringement from anyone at any age. As stated previously, we take cheating seriously, and we’ll pursue all available options to make sure our games are fun, fair, and competitive for players.”
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Old 11-27-2017, 06:15 PM   #2
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The letter also states that Caleb gained the cheats from a public website and livestreamed it, thus Epic should be going after the website and not her son.
She better hope they do throw the case out, because the dumb broad just threw her kid under the bus.
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Old 11-27-2017, 06:21 PM   #3
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I caught my youngest son, 10 playing some team based match via Minecraft. His buddy and him decided to grief their teammates. As soon as I realized wht was going on I smacked him in the head and said know why I did that? Because everyone your screwing with wants to do that or worse, knock that crap off and stop being a royal jerk online.

If I found out my son was using hacking tools and or exploits and then broadcasting this I would probabaly just nuke his pc entirely, give him Linux and open office for school work and that’s all.
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Old 11-27-2017, 06:22 PM   #4
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LOL. Epic suing a minor and revealing his name in the process? Yowza, that's some really well done lawyerly due diligence.

The mom has a couple of solid potential arguments on her side, that Epic failed to ascertain his correct age, cannot bind him to a EULA at his age, and no losses could occur in a game that was free to play.

Interesting case on both sides.
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Old 11-27-2017, 06:35 PM   #5
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Epic screwed up here.
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Old 11-27-2017, 06:43 PM   #6
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This makes about as much sense as record companies going after individual downloaders.

If they want to try to shut this shit down, go after the people creating and providing this shit, not the people using it.
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Old 11-27-2017, 06:43 PM   #7
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Epic screwed up here.
It looks like they had no choice. They had to protect their IP after the kid filed a DMCA counterclaim to a takedown notice. (Dealing with this stuff on YouTube can be a royal pain in the ass sometimes.) A while back one of our members, who knows that law, explained in cases like this you need to defend you IP or you can lose some of your rights.

Hopefully he'll come along and explain it much better than I can.

Although I think the kid's mom made some valid points, I think she should focus on her little shit kid, and straighten out his cheating ass.
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Old 11-27-2017, 06:53 PM   #8
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Is it Epic's fault if they were given bad info from the individual and acted on it? I'm not being snarky here, but I'm guessing they have information of his from whatever service he used to purchase their game.
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Old 11-27-2017, 07:00 PM   #9
MavenACTG
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She's going to defend her little monster in the public sphere even if she punishes him privately. Though I'd be interested to see how this case plays out because the mother does have some good points.

I'm not particularly sympathetic to a 14-year-old fucking with Epic's Intellectual Property rights or the survival of the company and those whose livelihoods depend on it. If Epic loses the case, it would seem to do more with objective qualities of the law, such as how minors can enter contracts.
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Old 11-27-2017, 07:14 PM   #10
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It takes TWO (or more) parties to enter into a contract. If the gaming company cannot effectively ascertain whether you are of legal age to enter into a EULA/contract, they shouldn't move forward with your access to their product. They need a method of weeding out minors WHO LIE ALL THE DAMN TIME (hence why bars check IDs, etc., etc.). Ultimately, in legal terms, the 'adult' in this contract bears more responsibility than the kid, and "enter your birthday here" age restrictions are absolute bullshit.
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Old 11-27-2017, 07:14 PM   #11
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well as horrible as cheating is... im on the side of the kid. I honestly cheated the hell out of diablo one, griefed people like you would not believe. i could kill you, res you instantantly with my hack, monsters killed you again, and....*POP* all your items came out. which i could pick up, and delete the item from the game by using a hack while i had the item in my cursor, so they never made it to my inventory but disapeared from the ground.

thing was... i think more people hacked diablo one than played normally. its just what happened.

being that fortnite is free, and therefore slightly less competitive than say blizzard games with ranking, ladders, tournies, or year end special events like Dota 2.

so the context of the cheating is important. free to play pub game...not really a big deal on the scale of cheats. Mass duping in diablo or other Online rpg...can totally fuck with an economy and change the game forever.

i agree with the mom. go after the content creators, even tho it is generally next to impossible since they often do not play the games they create the cheats for.
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Old 11-27-2017, 07:19 PM   #12
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She's going to defend her little monster in the public sphere even if she punishes him privately. Though I'd be interested to see how this case plays out because the mother does have some good points.

I'm not particularly sympathetic to a 14-year-old fucking with Epic's Intellectual Property rights or the survival of the company and those whose livelihoods depend on it. If Epic loses the case, it would seem to do more with objective qualities of the law, such as how minors can enter contracts.
Her argument would begin to fall apart should the judge choose to issue a waiver and try the kid as an adult. If they feel the offense is serious enough, they can choose to treat the minor as an adult...which would negate a good portion of her argument, since it hinges upon him being a minor. It's also risky pulling the EULA into the argument, since even the free-to-play version would come with an agreement.
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Old 11-27-2017, 07:23 PM   #13
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It's imperative to pull the EULA into the argument, since you can't enforce contracts with minors and it would also prove they had age restrictions they failed to enforce.

Edit: And NO, you can't magically 'declare him an adult' in court for the purposes of contract law. That's nonsensical bullshit idiocy.

The responsibility in a contract doesn't reside with the kid not even allowed to enter into it. It resides with the adult involved in the contract.
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Old 11-27-2017, 07:31 PM   #14
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Her argument would begin to fall apart should the judge choose to issue a waiver and try the kid as an adult. If they feel the offense is serious enough, they can choose to treat the minor as an adult...which would negate a good portion of her argument, since it hinges upon him being a minor. It's also risky pulling the EULA into the argument, since even the free-to-play version would come with an agreement.
Trying kids as adults for non-violent crimes is ridiculous.
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Old 11-27-2017, 09:09 PM   #15
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Fuck Epic and their shit game. Without Unreal and Gears they are worthless has-beens.
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Old 11-27-2017, 09:39 PM   #16
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well as horrible as cheating is... im on the side of the kid. I honestly cheated the hell out of diablo one, griefed people like you would not believe. i could kill you, res you instantantly with my hack, monsters killed you again, and....*POP* all your items came out. which i could pick up, and delete the item from the game by using a hack while i had the item in my cursor, so they never made it to my inventory but disapeared from the ground.
You, sir, are scum of the highest order and a plague upon this hobby. No matter how you justify it to yourself now, you're a piece of human refuse and I would not feel bad at all if my dog shit on your lawn.
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Old 11-27-2017, 11:54 PM   #17
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You, sir, are scum of the highest order and a plague upon this hobby. No matter how you justify it to yourself now, you're a piece of human refuse and I would not feel bad at all if my dog shit on your lawn.

lol, good thing i pay condo fees to have someone else deal with it! It is reactions like yours that always make it that much more satisfying to be a shit disturber

Diablo one was a different time in multiplayer gaming, anticheat was not even a thing until counterstrike or quake 3 arena.

Cheating in clan matches, ranking, tournaments etc is a serious offense, but messing around in a pub game like fortnite? I dont even know what hacks he employed, but it really is at the bottom of my list of concerns, compared to say hacking and cheating in competitive online games where big money is a factor.

What about the crazy exploits the used to exist in eve online that took developers years to wise up to? by then the economy was forever altered and power had shifted way too much into the hands of certain corrupt factions. Lots of real world $$$ tied to in game economy.

Come up with a better solution to enforce anti cheating in a free to play game, seems more reasonable than trying to navigate the court systems of charging a minor...
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Old 11-28-2017, 12:43 AM   #18
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I am not a lawyer so take this with a grain of salt. However I have worked with age related compliance and regulations like COPPA in both International and US regions. There are certain "gimmies" when it comes to digital EULAs and Terms of Services. In most cases if the company makes a good faith effort they can neither be held accountable nor hold the liar accountable for MOST infractions.

At the same time there are things you absolutely must do to ensure various information is protected to prevent gross infractions which, having read the EULA for Fortnite, EPIC has done (yes, I am one of "those" people).

To the best of Epic's knowledge when they published the name of the offender the only information they had was the users stated acknowledgement of the their eligibility to play the game which does either require guardian approval or self approval if legal emancipated or if you are age to otherwise be legally bound.

Just because Mom wasn't paying attention doesn't completely absolve them of fault, it just makes her a moron and the case dries up against that particular plaintiff and Epic has to move on to someone who is Legally Competent. Personally I hope there are some repercussions because Momma needs to learn to pay better attention to what her kid is signing her up. I think there may still be a possibility (again, not a lawyer here) that she can be held partially liable due to implied consent through neglect. There are certain types of real world crime, mostly petty, where adults can be held responsible for the acts committed by their children so this may be an important case to see if digital petty acts can meet the same standard in the same way the MPAA and RIAA have sued adults for the actions of children.

Outside of requiring digital proof of ID (which, let's face it, isn't much better than "enter your birthday" dropdowns) there's not much more which can be done short of mailed in notarized proof.
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Old 11-28-2017, 12:45 AM   #19
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Pretty sure Terran is mostly right for once in his life.

However I don't know if there is any age requirements for violating IP. Regardless of cheating he did livestream game content(without permission?) and then challenged what was possibly a lawful DMCA. Though as a minor can you even actually challenge a DMCA takedown?

The internet really needs a better way to validate age. I don't have any good/non-invasive ideas on how to do that though.
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Old 11-28-2017, 05:54 AM   #20
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Pretty sure Terran is mostly right for once in his life.
Why THANK YOU!

You sumbitch you!
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