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Old 01-25-2017, 09:49 AM   #41
PacerDawn
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Originally Posted by Chimpbot View Post
Backwards compatibility is not like flipping a switch. It's not something you can just "make happen". When software is written for a specific closed environment, it can take a lot of work to get it to function properly on an entirely separate closed environment.

You're free to have your baseline expectation, but it's a unfair expectation in most cases. Hell, backwards compatibility isn't even a guarantee for PC games; you'll eventually hit a point where software simply doesn't work properly with modern hardware.

It's not automatic. I wish it was....but, it's simply not.
I disagree that it is an unfair expectation. Regardless of whether everything works, PCs have proven that backward compatibility is possible. I still crank up Unreal Tournament 2004 and Total Annihilation on my modern i7 windows 10 PC. I have an Intel compute stick that is no bigger than the size of my dongle (it's smaller actually. MUCH smaller. The compute stick that is, not my dongle) that can play older games just fine, including emulators (DOSBox).

You are correct, it is not automatic. However, the reason for that is 100% due to the fault of the console makers. They are not making their consoles so they can be backward compatible with future iterations. That is not a forced limitation, this is a conscious decision that they are making.

Oh well, we didn't design it to be backward compatible! You can't blame us, so pay up for the new versions!

In this day and age I feel that expectation is most certainly fair.

However, console makers are going to continue to make their consoles without backward compatibility. Not only does this save them money in design, it makes them MORE money in the reselling of titles. Why WOULD they design them to be backward compatible?

The only way to get console makers to make their stuff backward compatible is to do the wallet voting thing and stop buying consoles that don't offer it. Gamers are never going to do that, though, so that is never going to change.
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Old 01-25-2017, 10:30 AM   #42
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Backwards compatibility is not like flipping a switch. It's not something you can just "make happen."
No, it's not 'flipping a switch,' but yes, you can indeed make it happen. PC developers do it all the time because they put effort into it, and games not only work across hardware generations in the PC realm but are almost universally cheaper for the end user to purchase (console greedhead licensing BS).

If they want to make it happen, it can happen. It doesn't because they don't want to do it. They want you to buy their new hardware, new software, remastered old products, etc., etc., in their closed garden.

Greed and laziness.
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Old 01-25-2017, 11:00 AM   #43
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I disagree that it is an unfair expectation. Regardless of whether everything works, PCs have proven that backward compatibility is possible. I still crank up Unreal Tournament 2004 and Total Annihilation on my modern i7 windows 10 PC. I have an Intel compute stick that is no bigger than the size of my dongle (it's smaller actually. MUCH smaller. The compute stick that is, not my dongle) that can play older games just fine, including emulators (DOSBox).

You are correct, it is not automatic. However, the reason for that is 100% due to the fault of the console makers. They are not making their consoles so they can be backward compatible with future iterations. That is not a forced limitation, this is a conscious decision that they are making.

Oh well, we didn't design it to be backward compatible! You can't blame us, so pay up for the new versions!

In this day and age I feel that expectation is most certainly fair.

However, console makers are going to continue to make their consoles without backward compatibility. Not only does this save them money in design, it makes them MORE money in the reselling of titles. Why WOULD they design them to be backward compatible?

The only way to get console makers to make their stuff backward compatible is to do the wallet voting thing and stop buying consoles that don't offer it. Gamers are never going to do that, though, so that is never going to change.
I disagree.

The difference between a console made in 2016 and a console made in 1996 are incredibly, incredibly vast. It's only a modern convention that consoles are being made from off-the-shelf parts and running standardized development systems and engines. This is a hard fought war that has taken decades to come to fruition. Many Japanese companies outright refused to use game engines from the States and they refused/were not able to use game engines from other studios. Studios like Squaresoft were building their game engines from the ground up to be customers for their own use and they tended to be made to be used specifically on certain hardware.

I mean, heck, remember back in the day where ports of the same game to different consoles were basically entirely different games? Sometimes they WERE entirely different games.

The Playstation 3 was only capable of emulating playstation 2 games because they put a playstation 2 INSIDE the playstation 3.
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Old 01-25-2017, 11:11 AM   #44
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The Playstation 3 was only capable of emulating playstation 2 games because they put a playstation 2 INSIDE the playstation 3.
That's pretty much the exact opposite of the meaning of emulation, but I think I take your point.
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Old 01-25-2017, 11:13 AM   #45
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You've lost the argument already because of one word: Emulation. Virtually all of the titles from past hardware can be run on a PC in emulation, which means that given the proper valuation of the ability to play these games on newer console hardware (aka the time and money invested to make it happen), console manufacturers could create the architecture within their devices to run these titles. They choose not to do it to the degree of that it happens on the PC. It's a choice, driven by greed and laziness.
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Old 01-25-2017, 02:27 PM   #46
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That's pretty much the exact opposite of the meaning of emulation, but I think I take your point.
you're right. But thank you for understanding my point.
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Old 01-25-2017, 02:28 PM   #47
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You've lost the argument already because of one word: Emulation. Virtually all of the titles from past hardware can be run on a PC in emulation, which means that given the proper valuation of the ability to play these games on newer console hardware (aka the time and money invested to make it happen), console manufacturers could create the architecture within their devices to run these titles. They choose not to do it to the degree of that it happens on the PC. It's a choice, driven by greed and laziness.
Emulation is essentially running a software version of the hardware while also running the game. It's not something that is as easy as it sounds to make work. Some consoles, like the saturn, still don't have great emulation.
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Old 01-25-2017, 02:33 PM   #48
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It's not a question of easy. It's a reality that it is done on the PC and could be done on consoles if they wanted it done, but they don't. That's the reality. Nothing anyone says otherwise moves that immovable fact. The console hardware manufacturers could do it, but don't do it to any consistent or complete degree, because they don't want to. Greed and laziness.
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Old 01-25-2017, 03:37 PM   #49
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It's not a question of easy. It's a reality that it is done on the PC and could be done on consoles if they wanted it done, but they don't. That's the reality. Nothing anyone says otherwise moves that immovable fact. The console hardware manufacturers could do it, but don't do it to any consistent or complete degree, because they don't want to. Greed and laziness.
It's done on the PC because the basis behind processor architecture and the way it communicates with hardware has remained largely unchanged for the past two decades. This isn't the case at all with consoles, most of which used custom hardware up until very recently. With that being said, not every PC game is automatically going to work on modern hardware. It takes time, effort and money in order to make older software work...if it works at all.

Try popping in a copy of Diablo or Legacy of Kain and tell me how much luck you have playing them on modern hardware.

When it comes to emulating a console, they typically use sheer brute force to emulate the hardware...and then the game is running on top of that brute force emulation. It's not just a matter of instantly making it happen. It never has been and the only reason it may be the case in the future is because the consoles are now being built with what is essentially off-the-shelf parts.

For example, the architecture of the Xbox was entirely different from the 360. When it came to emulating the old Xbox, getting a particular game to work could cause two other games to stop working and vice versa. They were dealing with software written for a very specific set of hardware...and it wasn't always easy getting that software to run on an entirely different set of very specific hardware.

The reality of "backwards compatibility" on PC is entirely and completely different from what has to be dealt with in the console space. You call it greed...but we're dealing with businesses. They have to pay a team of software engineers to make these things happen and often times, the companies involved won't necessarily even see a dime out of it. There is an expense behind this process, after all.
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Old 01-25-2017, 05:18 PM   #50
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It's not a question of easy. It's a reality that it is done on the PC and could be done on consoles if they wanted it done, but they don't. That's the reality. Nothing anyone says otherwise moves that immovable fact. The console hardware manufacturers could do it, but don't do it to any consistent or complete degree, because they don't want to. Greed and laziness.
I don't understand where you're getting the idea that it's an immutable fact that old games run on modern PCs. Not only do most of them not, you have companies out there like GOG who specialize in MAKING those old games work and reselling them to you.
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Old 01-25-2017, 06:48 PM   #51
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It's done on the PC because the basis behind processor architecture and the way it communicates with hardware has remained largely unchanged for the past two decades.
And consoles manufacturers have complicated this aspect out of their own design choices. They didn't want to bother planning around backwards compatibility because they want you buying their new hardware and remastered software.

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I don't understand where you're getting the idea that it's an immutable fact that old games run on modern PCs.
From reality.
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Old 01-26-2017, 12:52 AM   #52
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Some consoles, like the saturn, still don't have great emulation.
I think mainly because there is not a lot of demand for it.
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Old 01-26-2017, 05:26 AM   #53
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I would have to disagree here, I do not consider the tech very interesting at all. It's literally a tablet with external controller, something that has already been around for some time. I guess the "new" is that Nintendo provides a dock to easily hook the tablet up to a TV (with Android tablets, you have to use an HDMI cable).

Really the only thing that would drive this would be the games, but that didn't help the Wii U very much.

I consider myself unbiased. I'm not for or against Nintendo. I have DS and 3DS (several of each). I have two Wii's. However, I wasn't interested in the Wii U at all and I'm not really interested in this either.

Nintendo made a tablet with limited features and called it a console. Now the Switch very well could do great as the Nintendo Tablet. But personally I just don't see the draw here.

(Also, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Shield tablet dock in the near future...)

Well no tablet is a strong as this tablet is in handheld mode (nor does any tablet have access to these new games or Nintendo made games etc) and when it is sitting in that dock the tablet becomes AT LEAST 3 times as powerful as a Wii U even using the lower end leaked specs from Eurogamer.
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Old 01-26-2017, 10:47 AM   #54
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Well, the marketing is better, imo. I can't believe Nintendo made a commercial (Germany) involving sitting on the toilet.

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