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Old 11-02-2019, 09:38 AM   #4921
VenomUSMC
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This has next to no sourcing for its claims. The only claim with sourcing is Iran might be running computer simulations.

No one said it was a perfect deal, but to say it wasn't slowing Iran down is false when they decommissioned 75% of their best centrifuges and handed over 98% of their uranium, and were for the most part allowing IAEA inspections.
This is an example of stupid. Per your own post, they weren't allowing all of the IAEA inspections. A major criticism of the agreement is that places that should be subject to inspection were not required to be inspected. It's like searching a house, but not checking 2 bedrooms in it -- but claiming it's all clear.
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Old 11-02-2019, 11:03 AM   #4922
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A litany of all that the Washington ComPost got wrong this past week.

It would be astonishing if it weren't expected. Seriously, read the ComPost (free online, don't pay for that shit) and you'll know exactly the opposite of what is actually observable reality. Flip their printed perspective on its head (a 180) and you'll be on the money, lol.
That would explain where Eats gets all his info from.
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Old 11-03-2019, 02:25 PM   #4923
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I have to change my mind about the Ukraine call. I suspect there was implications of quid pro quo.

So now the question is: is quid pro quo between state leaders illegal and an impeachable offense?

The thorn here is the mentions of Biden where the results of that specific investigation could sway the American voters in a similar way I suspect people were swayed when James Comey came out near Nov 2016 and said they had to reevaluate Clinton's handling of emails.

Most countries are not in the business of doing things out of the goodness of their hearts if it is going to cost them time and resources so I feel like a deal between state actors is the typical way of getting things done. Hell, in my job I am trading, creating, and calling in favors all the time with the various teams I work with as a normal part of project management because everyone has competing priorities and limited resources. Calling such a thing "Quid Pro Quo", while technically correct makes things sound much more sinister than the normal course of running a business, much less a country.

As someone mentioned, did Obama get impeached for his offer of quid pro quo during his hot mic moment of "I can do more after the election" or whatever? It was him horsetrading that if Russia plays nice until he gets reelected and there will be something juicy in it for them if they do. Quid Pro Quo.

That is interference into American elections right there. If Russia had stayed their course or been more aggressive would Obama's "The 80's called and they want their foreign policy back" zinger been nearly as powerful against Romney? Wouldn't Obama's approach to Russia been seen as the weaksauce it was and Romney suddenly seem much stronger on foreign policy at a time when America was (and still is) really not that into Russia and Putin and might have to be meaner at some point?

That sounds like an American President asking for Russian collusion in our election process.

Anyway, I've changed my mind on if the President was asking for quid pro quo to where I think it is actually irrelevant to even ask the question, despite the possible negative reflection on Joe Biden. How else is our country's foreign policy supposed to be conducted without promises of give and take?

Impeachment on this matter is a sham.
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Old 11-03-2019, 06:40 PM   #4924
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So now the question is: is quid pro quo between state leaders illegal and an impeachable offense?
Every conversation ever, past/present/future, between heads of state is a quid pro quo. Every single one. You don't talk to them if you don't want something, and you don't give millions/billions away for hugs and kisses.

We just wasted three years investigating whether a politician (Trump) was being assisted by the interference of another country. Clear thinking Americans knew the whole 'Russian asset' nonsense was bullshit, but we spent years on it because it's supposedly important to root out foreign interference in our elections.

Now, with legitimate questions as to whether the leading Democrat for president (Biden) is in fact involved in illegality with a foreign nation, it's 'OMG WTF BLARGH IMPEACH.'

Sorry idiots, you can't have it both ways, lol. It's perfectly reasonable for a president to push for this shit the Dems are involved in to be investigated. At this point, the ONLY political party that is PROVEN to have been involved in colluding with a foreign power over our elections is the Democrats...paying a British spy to dig up dirt from Ukraine and Russia on a presidential candidate (Trump), then spying on that candidate and using the levers of the state to destroy him.

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Impeachment on this matter is a sham.
Damn straight.
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Old 11-04-2019, 10:44 AM   #4925
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So an appeals court in New York ruled Trump (via his tax firm) has to comply with a subpoena forcing him to release 8 years of corporate and personal taxes despite him not being charged with any crime. Rather, this is related to the payoff Michael Cohen did to Stormy Daniels, something which was determined to not violate campaign finance rules and should have been the end of it.

People are so interested in seeing how much Trump makes they'll stop at nothing.

However, it made me think of something. Because of the non-stop harassment Trump has to endure at the hands of his political opponents, who are so desperate to get SOMETHING on him; PLEASE GOD LET ANYTHING STICK! Instead of just "wow, he sure seems to lie a lot" (arguable, or at best on unimportant things) or "I just don't like him as a person" that no matter WHAT happens any victory or ruling against him will be seen as ultra-partisan and unfair.

This is what happens when you cry wolf. People stop listening or eventually come to the conclusion the Sheep are in it with the Shepherd to make sure no one gets any sleep and they start to HATE YOU and pray the wolves come and shut them fuckers up.

They call Trump a liar however the media and dems have been lying NON-STOP since he came down the escalator and announced he was running. And not just little lies, Republic destroying levels of lying. And yet no one has apologized or been held accountable.
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Old 11-04-2019, 11:20 AM   #4926
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As others have said, I'm a lot less interested in the tax returns of a billionaire who became a politician than a politician who became a billionaire.
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Old 11-04-2019, 11:24 AM   #4927
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As others have said, I'm a lot less interested in the tax returns of a billionaire who became a politician than a politician who became a billionaire.
Oh, that's easy. Insider trading based on their knowledge as lawmakers is only very narrowly prohibited via the STOP act. They are still allowed to do it just not generally using information they get from a committee they might be on which holds secret meetings with principles in the area of interest.

And that's before the influence peddling and other shenanigans which puts the son of the VP on the board of a company he knows nothing about in an industry he knows nothing about for a grotesque salary considering the duties of the job.

The real question is what Tax Loopholes is Trump using and if he was lying about the amount of money he has. Some people don't believe he is a billionaire and if he said he was but he isn't we must IMPEACH HIM!
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Old 11-04-2019, 02:07 PM   #4928
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So an appeals court in New York ruled Trump (via his tax firm) has to comply with a subpoena forcing him to release 8 years of corporate and personal taxes despite him not being charged with any crime. Rather, this is related to the payoff Michael Cohen did to Stormy Daniels, something which was determined to not violate campaign finance rules and should have been the end of it.

People are so interested in seeing how much Trump makes they'll stop at nothing.

However, it made me think of something. Because of the non-stop harassment Trump has to endure at the hands of his political opponents, who are so desperate to get SOMETHING on him; PLEASE GOD LET ANYTHING STICK! Instead of just "wow, he sure seems to lie a lot" (arguable, or at best on unimportant things) or "I just don't like him as a person" that no matter WHAT happens any victory or ruling against him will be seen as ultra-partisan and unfair.

This is what happens when you cry wolf. People stop listening or eventually come to the conclusion the Sheep are in it with the Shepherd to make sure no one gets any sleep and they start to HATE YOU and pray the wolves come and shut them fuckers up.

They call Trump a liar however the media and dems have been lying NON-STOP since he came down the escalator and announced he was running. And not just little lies, Republic destroying levels of lying. And yet no one has apologized or been held accountable.

There are multiple legitimate ways Trumps tax returns have been requested at this point, and if congress is supposed to serve as oversight and be a check on the executive they legitimately should be able to see his tax returns. I don't even mean for public release necessarily, but in their oversight capacity they need to be able to view them.

Honestly, I think all they will see is some sketchy tax practices and that he is poor/in serious debt/possibly owes significant sums to russian/easten european banks.

Trump is clearly a great hype man/marketing genius. If you look into his history though it is also apparent that he is not a great business man.

Last edited by Eats; 11-04-2019 at 02:21 PM..
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Old 11-04-2019, 02:15 PM   #4929
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I have to change my mind about the Ukraine call. I suspect there was implications of quid pro quo.

So now the question is: is quid pro quo between state leaders illegal and an impeachable offense?

...

As someone mentioned, did Obama get impeached for his offer of quid pro quo during his hot mic moment of "I can do more after the election" or whatever? It was him horsetrading that if Russia plays nice until he gets reelected and there will be something juicy in it for them if they do. Quid Pro Quo.
Ridiculous comparison. Your quote is out of context and probably related to his ability to negotiate and not a request for anything. There is no evidence that your out of context sentence means anything like what you are suggesting.

There is no precedent for a President withholding funds from another country to force them to publicly announce a sham investigation into their political rival. It is a clear abuse of power that shouldn't go unpunished. You can try to pretend this is business as usual but this is unprecedented in US history.

I predict Trump will get impeached and the Senate will bounce it. I also think Giuliani will be charged with a crime that he is definitely guilty of in 2020.
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Old 11-04-2019, 02:34 PM   #4930
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Ridiculous comparison. Your quote is out of context and probably related to his ability to negotiate and not a request for anything. There is no evidence that your out of context sentence means anything like what you are suggesting.

According to the ultra right-wing CBS, it was a request for space on the issue of missile defense system that the U.S. was to install in Europe -- that the Russians did not want installed. If you tell someone that you can be more flexible on an issue that you know their stance is, wouldn't a rational person come to the conclusion that flexibility is to the benefit of the person/group you're assuring? Give me space prior to the election and I'll help you get what you want after. It's okay, because it's Obama.
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Old 11-04-2019, 03:31 PM   #4931
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There are multiple legitimate ways Trumps tax returns have been requested at this point, and if congress is supposed to serve as oversight and be a check on the executive they legitimately should be able to see his tax returns..


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Old 11-04-2019, 04:58 PM   #4932
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Old 11-04-2019, 06:19 PM   #4933
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According to the ultra right-wing CBS, it was a request for space on the issue of missile defense system that the U.S. was to install in Europe -- that the Russians did not want installed. If you tell someone that you can be more flexible on an issue that you know their stance is, wouldn't a rational person come to the conclusion that flexibility is to the benefit of the person/group you're assuring? Give me space prior to the election and I'll help you get what you want after. It's okay, because it's Obama.
Except he didn't say "give me space prior to the election" or anything like that. Those are words you are making up. He just said after the election he will have more flexibility to negotiate, which is not the same thing at all.

That most likely means Obama thinks a deal should be made, but he doesn't want to look soft before an election and give the GOP a talking point. He never asked the Russians to "give him space" or to help him at all. There is no evidence of a quid pro quo here. There is no outcry witness saying that is true, or depositions from officials at the state department saying that is what happened. This is a fantasy.

You are just desperately trying to justify Trumps behavior when it is beyond the pale.

Last edited by Eats; 11-04-2019 at 07:09 PM..
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Old 11-04-2019, 07:19 PM   #4934
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Desperate justification huh Eats?
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Old 11-04-2019, 07:20 PM   #4935
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Except he didn't say "give me space prior to the election" or anything like that. Those are words you are making up. He just said after the election he will have more flexibility to negotiate, which is not the same thing at all.
You don't ready very well. "According to the ultra right-wing CBS, it was a request for space on the issue of missile defense system that the U.S."
I'm not making up the words, they're in the video -- and attributed to the organization that it come from, idiot. Once again, you illustrate how completely ignorant you are on yet another subject. It's amazing.

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That most likely means he thinks a deal should be made, but he doesn't want to look soft before an election and give the GOP a talking point.
Ah, so you think Obama's message to the then Russian President were connected to his then re-election bid. It's like you're alllllllmost there.

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He never asked the Russians to "give him space" or to help him at all. There is no evidence of a quid pro quo here. There is no outcry witness saying that is true, or depositions from officials at the state department saying that is what happened.
You really are dense. The ultra right-wing bigots at Snopes stated this:
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As he was leaning toward Medvedev in Seoul, Obama was overheard asking for time — “particularly with missile defense” — until he is in a better position politically to resolve such issues.

“I understand your message about space,” replied Medvedev, who will hand over the presidency to Putin in May.

“This is my last election … After my election I have more flexibility,” Obama said, expressing confidence that he would win a second term.

“I will transmit this information to Vladimir,” said Medvedev, Putin’s protégé and long considered number two in Moscow’s power structure.

The exchange, parts of it inaudible, was monitored by a White House pool of television journalists as well as Russian reporters listening live from their press center.
So, Obama appears to be asking for Russians to do him a favor (give him space) in order to benefit him (Obama) politically in a re-election and then Obama would return the favor with "flexibility" regarding a missile system Russia opposed. Quid Pro Quo: a favor or advantage granted or expected in return for something. It's okay, Eats, Obama has a (D) beside his name.

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You are just desperately trying to justify Trumps behavior when it is beyond the pale.
There is video and audio with Obama's statement, along with even the alt-right CBS and Snopes stating Obama asked the Russians to do something in order to help him politically while he was up for re-election. You're apparently too dumb to understand who is even being cited in a short video clip. Just how desperate are you to justify this.
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Old 11-04-2019, 07:41 PM   #4936
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He never asked the Russians to "give him space" or to help him at all. There is no evidence of a quid pro quo here.
You are truly a stupid fuck.



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Old 11-04-2019, 08:01 PM   #4937
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Except he didn't say "give me space prior to the election" or anything like that. Those are words you are making up. He just said after the election he will have more flexibility to negotiate, which is not the same thing at all.

That most likely means Obama thinks a deal should be made, but he doesn't want to look soft before an election and give the GOP a talking point. He never asked the Russians to "give him space" or to help him at all. There is no evidence of a quid pro quo here. There is no outcry witness saying that is true, or depositions from officials at the state department saying that is what happened. This is a fantasy.

You are just desperately trying to justify Trumps behavior when it is beyond the pale.
What exactly does "I have more flexibility after my election" say to you? Good god you're a fucking idiot.
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Old 11-04-2019, 08:12 PM   #4938
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You don't ready very well. "According to the ultra right-wing CBS, it was a request for space on the issue of missile defense system that the U.S."
I'm not making up the words, they're in the video -- and attributed to the organization that it come from, idiot. Once again, you illustrate how completely ignorant you are on yet another subject. It's amazing.

Ah, so you think Obama's message to the then Russian President were connected to his then re-election bid. It's like you're alllllllmost there.

You really are dense. The ultra right-wing bigots at Snopes stated this:
So, Obama appears to be asking for Russians to do him a favor (give him space) in order to benefit him (Obama) politically in a re-election and then Obama would return the favor with "flexibility" regarding a missile system Russia opposed. Quid Pro Quo: a favor or advantage granted or expected in return for something. It's okay, Eats, Obama has a (D) beside his name.

There is video and audio with Obama's statement, along with even the alt-right CBS and Snopes stating Obama asked the Russians to do something in order to help him politically while he was up for re-election. You're apparently too dumb to understand who is even being cited in a short video clip. Just how desperate are you to justify this.
This is just way too vague to be a quid pro quo. Both the quid and the quo are so nebulous and vague. Asking for "space" doesn't really mean anything, and the quo is also not clear. What did the Russians gain specifically? What did Obama gain specifically?

Was he asking Russia to hack his rivals? Was he asking Russia to announce an investigation into his rivals? Crimes are not innuendo. Contracts require consideration(typically money, but not always). What is the consideration specifically. What is Obama offering? "flexibility" is not consideration. "space" is not something you can ask for in a contract. Also this doesn't even seem to be on the recording, so it is also double hearsay, in addition to not meeting the standard of any kind of agreement.

Trump specifically withheld millions of dollars and specifically wanted the president of Ukraine to announce an investigation into Biden. That is an unambiguous quid pro quo for political purposes. That meets the 4 elements of an actual contract and is a very specific abuse of power. There are many witnesses, on the record, under oath.

Do I think what Obama did is sketchy? Yes. Worthy of a rebuke from Congress? Yes.
Do I think it rises to anywhere near what is going on with Trump, who is actively trying to force allies into attacking his political enemies with the purse strings of government? Not even on the same level at all.

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Old 11-04-2019, 08:48 PM   #4939
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Holy crap.... I just realized that Eats is Adam Schiff. It's the only thing that explains away the willful idiocy.
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Old 11-04-2019, 08:59 PM   #4940
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Holy crap.... I just realized that Eats is Adam Schiff. It's the only thing that explains away the willful idiocy.
You support a man who created and ran a fraudulent university to scam people, yet you now think he has reformed and isn't also scamming you, and you are so confident in him you don't even want to see his tax returns. Trump also seems to have surrounded himself with criminals, but that is because he is just such an upstanding guy right? Talk about willful idiocy. Have you ever participated in a pyramid scam before? You should look into emu eggs, they are a great opportunity for people like you.
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