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Old 11-05-2019, 09:04 PM   #4961
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Regardless of the validity of the reasoning behind impeachment, I am disappointed the vote will be strictly politics, rather than justice or right or wrong.

Our leaders should have the balls to do the RIGHT thing, not the political thing. And that includes kicking off impeachment in the first place. It was political not being done for the good of the country.

Hell, the Dems have been trying to impeach Trump since, literally, day 1 before they even had a chance to test out his policies.
Trump should be impeached for this though. Ultimately what he did isn't ok and shouldn't just go unchallenged. He isn't a king who can blatantly use the purse of the US for his own personal reasons.

I'm not saying he should get kicked out of office, but he should be called on this.

Especially if you compare this to why Clinton was impeached.
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Old 11-05-2019, 10:36 PM   #4962
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Trump should be impeached for this though.
I disagree. Based on the transcript Trump was operating well within acceptable boundaries. And certainly way within the boundaries of acceptable flexible political "bargaining" set by the Obama administration and Obama and Biden themselves.

It's only the hypocrisy if the left and the desire to see Trump fail, because he is putting them all to shame with his ability to actually get things done despite constant obstruction.

They are pissed he is exposing almost all politicians as frauds and hacks.
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Old 11-05-2019, 11:25 PM   #4963
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I disagree. Based on the transcript Trump was operating well within acceptable boundaries. And certainly way within the boundaries of acceptable flexible political "bargaining" set by the Obama administration and Obama and Biden themselves.

It's only the hypocrisy if the left and the desire to see Trump fail, because he is putting them all to shame with his ability to actually get things done despite constant obstruction.

They are pissed he is exposing almost all politicians as frauds and hacks.
But there is far more evidence then just the transcript of the call. The top diplomat appointed by Trump, Sondland, admitted today that there was a quid pro quo that was being orchestrated.

"Gordon Sondland, U.S. ambassador to the European Union, had previously asserted that Trump had not dangled U.S. aid to Ukraine in return for political favors.

But on Monday, he amended that narrative to include a crucial anecdote: In September, he’d told a top Ukrainian official that Trump would “likely” withhold U.S. military aid to Ukraine unless the country’s leaders agreed publicly to launch anti-corruption investigations that could benefit Trump politically


Sondland says “I now recall” a Sept. 1 meeting with top U.S. and Ukrainian officials in Warsaw, where he told an adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky that nearly $400 million in U.S. financial aid was contingent on Zelensky committing to investigations into the 2016 election and Burisma Holdings, a Ukrainian energy company that employed the son of former Vice President Joe Biden, a leading 2020 presidential contender."

And it isn't just Sondland. Kurt Volker, the former special envoy to Ukraine has also testified that a quid pro quo was told to the Ukrainians.

William Taylor, currently the top U.S. diplomat in Ukraine, has also testified that they were pressuring ukraine over this Quid Pro Quo.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4...-pro-quo-story

The reason Sondland reversed is because several witnesses told the truth about what Sondland had done and he was probably afraid of going to jail for perjury.

Pretending like this didn't happen isn't really a viable argument anymore.
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Old 11-06-2019, 05:15 AM   #4964
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Sondland said in his revised testimony that he wasn't sure why the aid was held up, he merely presumed it. And he asked Trump point blank what he wanted in return or if he wanted X in repayment for Y etc. Trump flat out said he wanted nothing. So Trump is guilty of quid pro quo because it was presumed that he withheld aid until Biden was investigated. Except that they got the aid anyway, even without the investigation. That's like accusing someone of murdering Joe Blow except Joe Blow is still walking around.

Now I know this isn't enough for you Eats because you are dishonest. And that's morally (see Terran's sig) and intellectually (see everything else in this thread) and the worst part is that you either won't admit it or just don't know it.
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Old 11-06-2019, 06:15 AM   #4965
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Trump should be impeached for this though. Ultimately what he did isn't ok and shouldn't just go unchallenged. He isn't a king who can blatantly use the purse of the US for his own personal reasons.

I'm not saying he should get kicked out of office, but he should be called on this.

Especially if you compare this to why Clinton was impeached.
That every other US citizen realized at the time Trump was being sarcastic and little Adam Schi..er Eats is too much of a partisan hack piece of shit to put 1 + 1 together.
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Old 11-06-2019, 12:29 PM   #4966
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Volker said it was a general assumption of the European Union, France, the UK, Germany, and American diplomats "that Shokin was not doing his job as prosecutor general," adding that Shokin "was not pursuing corruption cases" when Joe Biden called for him to be fired.

Contrary to Trump's assertions, there were also no active investigations into Burisma at the time Shokin was pushed out

https://apple.news/Aj5ZDD5k_R4SZqJVCxRobew
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Old 11-06-2019, 12:35 PM   #4967
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Taylor also testified that Sondland said Trump personally told him that he wanted Ukraine to “state publicly” that it would open such probes, before the U.S. would release the aid, which is viewed as critical for combating Russia’s aggression in the region. Taylor repeatedly underscored the damage that even a temporary hold on the aid had done to the U.S.-Ukraine relationship, at a time when the budding democracy was resisting an advance by Russian forces and fighting corruption at the highest levels of the government.

“Ambassador Sondland tried to explain to me that President Trump is a businessman. When a businessman is about to sign a check to someone who owes him something, he said, the businessman asks that person to pay up before signing the check,” Taylor said, according to his opening statement.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pol...y-trump-054259
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Old 11-06-2019, 12:40 PM   #4968
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Taylor also testified that Sondland said Trump personally told him that he wanted Ukraine to “state publicly” that it would open such probes, before the U.S. would release the aid, which is viewed as critical for combating Russia’s aggression in the region. Taylor repeatedly underscored the damage that even a temporary hold on the aid had done to the U.S.-Ukraine relationship, at a time when the budding democracy was resisting an advance by Russian forces and fighting corruption at the highest levels of the government.

“Ambassador Sondland tried to explain to me that President Trump is a businessman. When a businessman is about to sign a check to someone who owes him something, he said, the businessman asks that person to pay up before signing the check,” Taylor said, according to his opening statement.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pol...y-trump-054259
As if getting countries to handle and investigate their own corruption is such a bad thing. And if you think the US doesn't mettle in elections and otherwise all over the world regardless who the sitting president is, then you're a bigger moron than any of us thought.

Remember kids, it was perfectly alright for Obama to do favors for Russia in regards to missile defense over the Ukraine. Now investigating these actions is clearly impeachable! Apparently when the left wants to make deals with other governments, it's ok. Otherwise it's collusion and impeachable.
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Old 11-06-2019, 12:56 PM   #4969
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Taylor also testified that Sondland said Trump personally told him that he wanted Ukraine to “state publicly” that it would open such probes, before the U.S. would release the aid
So Taylor said that Sondland said that. But Sondland said that Trump gave no such direction. Quite the opposite in fact:



And even if there was, you are blowing it way out of proportion. Read what Alan Dershowitz says here:
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Originally Posted by Alan Dershowitz
The effort to find (or create) impeachable offense against President Donald Trump has now moved from the subjects of the Mueller investigation -- collusion with Russia and obstruction of justice -- to alleged recent political "sins": "quid pro quo" with Ukraine and obstruction of Congress.

The goal of the impeach-at-any-cost cadre has always been the same: impeach and remove Trump, regardless of whether or not he did anything warranting removal. The means -- the alleged impeachable offenses -- have changed, as earlier ones have proved meritless. The search for the perfect impeachable offense against Trump is reminiscent of overzealous prosecutors who target the defendant first and then search for the crime with which to charge him. Or to paraphrase the former head of the Soviet secret police to Stalin: show me the man and I will find you the crime.
.
.
.
So, the question remains: did President Trump commit impeachable offenses when he spoke on the phone to the president of Ukraine and/or when he directed members of the Executive Branch to refuse to cooperate, absent a court order, with congressional Democrats who are seeking his impeachment?

The answers are plainly no and no. There is a constitutionally significant difference between a political "sin," on the one hand, and a crime or impeachable offenses, on the other.
Again you are barely worth contendning with because of how dishonest you are. And if you're not dishonest, you're ignorant.
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Old 11-06-2019, 01:48 PM   #4970
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...Shokin was not doing his job as prosecutor general...was not pursuing corruption cases" when Joe Biden called for him to be fired.
Liar.

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Does the appearance of Hunter Biden’s name in State Department e-mail traffic show corrupt influence on US policy? E-mails dug up by John Solomon in his reporting on influence-peddling, then and now, suggest that the timing of Joe Biden’s infamous intervention in Ukraine might be even more suspect than it has looked before. Biden insists — nay, bragged — that he threatened to withhold a billion dollars in aid in March 2016 unless Petro Poroshenko fired prosecutor general Viktor Shokin.

Biden claims he did that because Shokin had not aggressively prosecuted corruption, including that at Burisma, where his son Hunter sat on the board. However, the new e-mails show that Hunter’s name was being tossed around the State Department a month earlier as the firm pleaded that Shokin was being too tough:
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Old 11-06-2019, 02:48 PM   #4971
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Again, I say it is irrelevant. The give and take of foreign policy is ALL quid pro quo.

Hey, we're going to send aid to the Palestinians ONLY IF they do X, Y, Z. That's the normal course of doing business.

Russia, lay off until I get reelected and I'll repay you with a fairer hearing on what you want. Normal course of doing business (in Eats mind).

Ukraine, we need your help to get to the bottom of some massive corruption issues but if you don't you may be in jeopardy of losing some funding. Normal course of doing business.
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Old 11-06-2019, 04:50 PM   #4972
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Again, I say it is irrelevant. The give and take of foreign policy is ALL quid pro quo.
That is the central point, isn't it?!!? I've made that point repeatedly in this thread.

Doesn't matter, though. The Democrats are pounding the ONLY nail they have. They need something...anything...with which to attempt to weaken Trump. They are still in a stupor over his victory in 2016. They can't believe their anointed one lost. Their base will brook no quarter and no attempt to do anything beneficial for the nation that at all involves bipartisanship. Impeach, impeach, impeach...since day one, they've had TDS impeachment lunacy.

It's nonstop war now, because Republicans are finally fighting back. When the GOPe/RINOs were happy to lose graciously to their progtardian opponents, they could at least return to 'polite elite society' after losing. Not interested in losing any more, lol. Quite happy with the 157 (ONE HUNDRED FIFTY SEVEN as of today) federal judges and two SCOTUS judges we got as a result of FIGHTING.

So bring it. Let's do this all day, all night, all the time, non-stop. The left began this war. Now they have an opponent ready to bring it.

Edit: In case anyone doesn't realize a coup has been the plan since day one: Ten days into Trump's term: "Coup has started!"
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Old 11-07-2019, 02:25 AM   #4973
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This is crazy irrelevant bullshit, and if you actually look at the email you are referring to and can't see that then you are completely irrational. It in no way contradicts Volker's testimony. It would be surprising if Burisma didn't have lobbyists on its payroll.

That email isn't about Shokin, it is about the US launching its own investigation because Shokin wasn't doing it himself. It is clear from the body of the email that is what it is about.

What I posted was testimony given under oath by Kurt Volker, a lifelong republican and the Special Representative for Ukraine.

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Old 11-07-2019, 02:27 AM   #4974
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So Taylor said that Sondland said that. But Sondland said that Trump gave no such direction. Quite the opposite in fact:



And even if there was, you are blowing it way out of proportion. Read what Alan Dershowitz says here:


Again you are barely worth contendning with because of how dishonest you are. And if you're not dishonest, you're ignorant.
Every single person involved in diplomacy in Ukraine has now testified that they all believed there was a quid pro quo. They also communicated this to their Ukrainian counterparts. This was the message that was delivered to Ukraine.

You can live in denial if you want, but I doubt the american people will buy what you are selling.
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Old 11-07-2019, 02:35 AM   #4975
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Ukraine, we need your help to get to the bottom of some massive corruption issues but if you don't you may be in jeopardy of losing some funding. Normal course of doing business.
Stop pretending. It is clear at this point Trump required a public announcement of an investigation into Burisma Holdings. That isn't even the same thing as "investigating corruption". That is purely political.
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Old 11-07-2019, 04:41 AM   #4976
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*a bunch of denial while claiming others are denying*
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Old 11-07-2019, 07:16 AM   #4977
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Stop pretending. It is clear at this point Trump required a public announcement of an investigation into Burisma Holdings. That isn't even the same thing as "investigating corruption". That is purely political.
Anyone with a braincell realize the left, understanding they won't win without voter fraud and impeachment saw this before Trump even stepped foot in the white house. Your Attempted Coup FAILED sorry no parting gifts for you commie.
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Old 11-07-2019, 03:25 PM   #4978
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The give and take of foreign policy is ALL quid pro quo.

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That is the central point, isn't it?!!? I've made that point repeatedly in this thread.

Doesn't matter, though. The Democrats are pounding the ONLY nail they have. They need something...anything...with which to attempt to weaken Trump. They are still in a stupor over his victory in 2016. They can't believe their anointed one lost. Their base will brook no quarter and no attempt to do anything beneficial for the nation that at all involves bipartisanship. Impeach, impeach, impeach...since day one, they've had TDS impeachment lunacy.
Then you, dumb fuck that you are, come along:

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...there was a quid pro quo....You can live in denial if you want...
You really are a stupid, illiterate fuck. It's ALL quid pro quos, moron.

Investigate Trump for three years for a lie? HELL YEAH, say the Dems.
Investigate Biden for admitting to using his position to enrich and protect his son? HELL NO, say the Dems.

lololololololol.
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Old 11-07-2019, 04:22 PM   #4979
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You really are a stupid, illiterate fuck. It's ALL quid pro quos, moron.
According to this line of reasoning, if Trump required Ukraine to pay him personally half the money he was releasing to them, that would be ok. It is just a quid pro quo for personal gain, right? It isn't illegal so it isn't a problem.
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Old 11-07-2019, 04:45 PM   #4980
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According to this line of reasoning, if Trump required Ukraine to pay him personally half the money he was releasing to them, that would be ok. It is just a quid pro quo for personal gain, right? It isn't illegal so it isn't a problem.
Sounds like Joe Biden! What Biden did has an actual stink of illegality about it. What Trump did is not illegal and in fact is WHAT THE FUCKING DEMOCRATS SAID SHOULD BE DONE!

'Let's investigate foreign interference in our 2016 election' said the Dems...until the investigation leads to THEIR collusion with foreigners to interfere in our election.

As I said, you are a dumb fucker.
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