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Old 08-11-2018, 11:08 AM   #1
Emabulator
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Fallout 76's Solution To Dealing With Griefers Is Brutal; More PvP Details Revealed


GameSpot has the story.

Quote:
Bethesda has discussed how Fallout 76 will deal with griefers, namely players that are intent on attacking and killing others, even when their target isn't interested in player versus player combat. As discussed during the game's QuakeCon 2018 panel by game director Todd Howard, Bethesda decided to turn griefers into content for other players by giving them a taste of their own medicine.

"We want this element of danger, without griefing," said Howard, who continued on to explain that when you shoot someone you do a little bit of damage. He equated this action to lightly slapping someone in a bar to see if they want to fight. The other player can choose to ignore this slap or engage, and if it's the latter you start doing full damage.

Those that don't want to engage in PvP but are still killed do receive some in-game justice. The player that kills someone who doesn't agree to combat becomes a "Wanted Murderer" and receives no rewards from their kill, whether it's caps or experience. This player also then appears on the map as a red star and has a bounty placed on their head. The money from that bounty is taken out the murderer's pool, and also, other players looking to cash in on that bounty aren't visible to the murderer on the map.

Players that are a higher level offer better rewards if engaged and killed. If you decided to do some PvP and are killed, you have the option to seek revenge. Doing so gives players the opportunity to get double the rewards, if they're successful on a second attempt.
Read on.
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Old 08-11-2018, 11:34 AM   #2
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Sounds like it will be a complete train wreck. They basically still have no idea how to handle forcing people into PvP in what is usually a PvE game.
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:57 PM   #3
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Sounds like it will be a complete train wreck. They basically still have no idea how to handle forcing people into PvP in what is usually a PvE game.



I guess I'm of the belief that any system can be exploited. Griefing is a lot like hateful speech in that no one likes it but it's never going away. Instead of banning it we need to become more tolerant of it (able to ignore).
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:58 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by brandonjclark View Post
I guess I'm of the belief that any system can be exploited. Griefing is a lot like hateful speech in that no one likes it but it's never going away. Instead of banning it we need to become more tolerant of it (able to ignore).
I agree that griefing isn't going away, but your analogy is faulty. The videogame equivalent of hateful speech is, well hateful speech. Its also easy to ignore. Just don't read chat or ignore the idiots on voice.

Griefing is more akin to (indirect) assault in the sense that it is both harmful and disruptive. You can't just keep doing what you were doing because the griefer intentionally interferes with your gameplay. Wether by attacking you, manipulating the environment or pulling monsters to you, he changes the conditions of your play.

I doubt Bethesda's solution is going to work out the way they want them to. If friendly fire is a thing and turns on PvP after the first hit, all you need is a hectic fight to accidentally kill players. It also doesn't fix enviroment manipulation where the griefer sets you up to die without actually attacking you.
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Old 08-11-2018, 03:09 PM   #5
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This doesn't sound perfect, but it does sound a whole lot better than I felt about it when I first read the details of the game a while back. Still not a pre-order, but I'll actively look at reviews after release. As a huge F4 fan, my disappointment is still bruise-colored.
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Old 08-11-2018, 04:17 PM   #6
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Nothing can entice me to get this game. The way they plan to deal with griefers sounds more like an invitation to make the game more fun for hardcore players. And locking it behind their own non-Steam service was the cherry ontop. Forget about mod support. If they pull the same crap with Doom and Rage 2 I'll be pissed.

Anyway, I'm having fun griefing people in No Man's Sky burying other players' carefully constructed bases under a mountain of dirt.
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Old 08-11-2018, 07:13 PM   #7
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Anyway, I'm having fun griefing people in No Man's Sky burying other players' carefully constructed bases under a mountain of dirt.
Are you joking or really doing this? If so, can I ask why?
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Old 08-11-2018, 09:44 PM   #8
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Are you joking or really doing this? If so, can I ask why?
As with all griefing, it would be simply because he can.
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Old 08-12-2018, 07:42 AM   #9
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As with all griefing, it would be simply because he can.
"All cruelty springs from weakness" -some old Italian bro
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Old 08-12-2018, 08:13 AM   #10
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Good. I was on the fence. Now that I know it's gonna be a gank fest I can skip it.
The quests/story sucked in 4 anyway. Love the setting. Like the combat but need something to care about faction or storywise.
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Old 08-12-2018, 09:26 AM   #11
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Griefing on no man's sky is the short bus of griefing.
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Old 08-12-2018, 09:33 AM   #12
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Griefing on no man's sky is the short bus of griefing.
"Hurr durr lemme wreck dat base u built, even tho ur just gunna abandon it in like 20 minutes."

Even with all of the additions, the point of the game is still exploring planets and pushing forward. Screwing with someone's base would be - at the very worst - a minor setback.
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Old 08-12-2018, 05:03 PM   #13
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Coop is way more fun, but it has been hilarious to find a base while the owner is off on another planet and taking some time to encase it in a Zerg-like monstrosity. The base is still 100% accessible. Undoing that kinda stuff is pretty easy and removing players from your session is two or three mouse clicks. There are far more frustrating griefs such as outright deleting bases, stealing resources, repeatedly killing on sight, etc.. Not very creative and boring. Something I've seen once involves glitching a base teleporter where you are flung into space and freeze to death. I don't see the point in that.
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Old 08-13-2018, 05:30 AM   #14
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Rust 76 will be very popular with 16 year old boys.
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Old 08-13-2018, 05:41 PM   #15
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The possibility of any griefing or forced PvP (even just having someone simply stalk me and annoyingly plink at me forever) is enough to take this way, way down on my buy list.

I am surprised at Bethesda going down a route that will cost them potentially millions of sales. Every game which implements non-consensual PvP in a story based mode has historically crippled their possible player reach right from the start regardless of the IP. I've never seen a non-consensual large world/MMO PvP game reach over half-a-million players (concurrent, of course these games can have long sales tails since some have been out for a super long time) though usually those players tend to be extremely loyal (like EvE online).

On smaller scales more recent examples like like Dark Souls style will show that once the novelty wore off only the most dedicated gankers and pvpers enjoyed invading worlds. Despite so many people having cherished memories about PvP and ganking in the story mode of the Diablo the activity became such a toxic element Blizzard didn't even bother to do hardly anything to support PvP in Diablo 3.

What Bethesda is setting up here is what ended up with tons of exploits in Ultima Online. Systems where the griefers will not directly grief you, instead they will ruin your experience in all sorts of new and interesting ways. They will stalk players and kill mobs players need in one shot, they will tame quest mobs, kill quest givers, and things like that till you can't stand it any more and either try to PvP them to stop them or log out in frustration.

Most players don't like to be at the mercy of other players. History has shown over the last 20 years at the very least, time and time again, in all genres, this is a truth in gaming. There is a very small (relatively) population who enjoys this style of gameplay in story based games.

I predict Bethesda will have to make PvE only servers and/or instances (or whatever technology they are using) or suffer a poor population if not starting out with lack-luster reviews as reviewers are faced with sociopaths and psychopaths who wait for such games to unleash their inner asshole.

Then when the population skyrockets on the PvE instances they'll see what a mistake they made allowing PvP at all. Just like with every other game that allows non-consensual PvP story aspects but either eventually offers PvE only options or launches with PvE side by side. When Everquest launched not only did the PvE servers have a better than 10:1 ratio vs. PvP but also it stole a lot of people from UO who were tired of getting randomly getting killed or robbed. Then when Trammel finally launched for UO (the PvE only continent) an overwhelming majority of bitching was that it took the soul from the game... but the largest majority of players played there.

I still remember the day I quit Ultima Online. I'd spent hours going out to find a horse to tame, I had brought it back to town when a griefer started attacking it. I could either let him kill the horse or attack him. I tried to lure him out of the town border because attacking players inside the town summoned insta-kill town guards but the horse wouldn't follow (it wouldn't stop attacking the griefer). I took a chance and shot an arrow at him from outside the town boundary but I guess since the bad guy was in the town it counted as attacking in the borders and the guards appeared and killed me.

The griefer took my horse and looted all my stuff. I quit the game and never went back and despite my love of MMOs I've never played an MMO since that allowed those sort of non-consensual PvP shenanigans.

Last edited by vallor; 08-13-2018 at 05:53 PM..
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Old 08-13-2018, 05:52 PM   #16
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If you buy a game that leans on PVP then complain about it and quit you are the problem. Having dedicated PVE servers is fine. Elite Dangerous handles it perfectly and every similar game should do it that way. You have one account/character with options for online mode, solo (technically still online but no other players are there), and private groups (some PVE-only like the popular Mobius group) to jump into at will. Right now people should be more worried about whether or not Fallout 76 is a stable and fun game to play. PVP and griefing is the least of your worries when Bethesda has been taking Fallout on a downward trajectory.
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Old 08-13-2018, 06:09 PM   #17
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If you buy a game that leans on PVP then complain about it and quit you are the problem. Having dedicated PVE servers is fine. Elite Dangerous handles it perfectly and every similar game should do it that way. You have one account/character with options for online mode, solo (technically still online but no other players are there), and private groups (some PVE-only like the popular Mobius group) to jump into at will. Right now people should be more worried about whether or not Fallout 76 is a stable and fun game to play. PVP and griefing is the least of your worries when Bethesda has been taking Fallout on a downward trajectory.
The support of griefing as a legitimate playstyle and the complicated system to try and forestall it shows me Bethesda is not dealing with reality.

Since they have apparently solved every other problem they created a overly complicated system that allows griefing so they can come up with an equally stupid and complicated system to combat the problem they created.
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Old 08-13-2018, 09:55 PM   #18
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I have seen other games where a player gets a flag for doing PKing (like UO) and it doesn’t work, the people who want to grief other players must go ahead and let themselves get killed, then they respawn and go after you again and again. It just doesn’t work. Lie the above post said, people just get more and more creative with their grieving until the company realizes they made a mistake.
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Old 08-14-2018, 08:52 AM   #19
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The support of griefing as a legitimate playstyle and the complicated system to try and forestall it shows me Bethesda is not dealing with reality.

Since they have apparently solved every other problem they created a overly complicated system that allows griefing so they can come up with an equally stupid and complicated system to combat the problem they created.
I think they are trying to stay true to the lore/universe of Fallout. I appreciate it. Apart of the lure, to me anyway, is traveling the wasteland with a little unease due to the fact someone could rob and kill me. I know a lot of folks are looking forward to that as well so it is a challenge for Bethesda to support that experience and also develop consequences for players unruly actions. The good news is now days things can change on the fly and Bethesda can easily tweak whatever rules they wish so I will reserve my judgement on how they handle that in the future.
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Old 08-14-2018, 08:07 PM   #20
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The problem is that the real world has little tolerance for The Joker, but The Joker would be right at home in a virtual space where *none* of the players have any attachment to the long-term, ongoing prosperity of the space.
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