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Old 06-22-2018, 08:46 PM   #41
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I'm asking you since you are saying there are absolute moral truths. Shouldn't the answer be very clear and obvious?
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Old 06-22-2018, 08:50 PM   #42
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I'm asking you since you are saying there are absolute moral truths. Shouldn't the answer be very clear and obvious?
There are absolute moral truths. Why should this be one necessarily, and why should I answer you when you can't even figure out if that is ever even possible or whether such a conversation is dumb or not?

You really should ask Obama. He did the same thing. Perhaps he has an answer for you.

You are an absolutely fascinating progressive mess.
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Old 06-22-2018, 08:56 PM   #43
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If something simple like this isn't a moral truth then the world is completely full of greys.

Even the 10 commandments can be turned on their head pretty easily.

If moral absolutism only covers a handful of situations then it really isn't good for anything and you are basically a relativist yourself.
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Old 06-22-2018, 09:08 PM   #44
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If something simple like this
If you think this is simple, you're a simpleton. You would have fit in nicely with Obumbles, who placed migrant children with human traffickers under slave-like conditions.

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Even the 10 commandments can be turned on their head pretty easily.
Progressives have been busy murdering babies for a good long while, for sure!

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If moral absolutism only covers a handful of situations
You said it covered none. Then it covered some. Now it's only a handful? Perhaps you don't really know what the hell you're talking about.

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then it really isn't good for anything
It's great for flushing out relativists who don't know how to think their way out of a wet paper bag, lol.

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and you are basically a relativist yourself.
lulz. Oh boy, you got me there!
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Old 06-22-2018, 09:18 PM   #45
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You said it covered none. Then it covered some. Now it's only a handful?
I never said any of these things. I don't have the answers. You are the one who said morals don't cover something simple like border crossings or I assume whether almost any laws are moral or immoral to obey and enforce. I also assume you think it doesn't cover my other examples either which are very common issues. If that is not true please give me the ultimate moral answers to all my previous examples.

I didn't say anything about murdering babies, it is just pretty obvious that "honor thy father and mother" lacks clarity and could be interpreted in a lot of different ways. Also is "thou shalt not kill" a moral rule without any stipulations? Does it only apply to humans? Does it apply to semen? Does it apply to cows or dogs?

Who is the universal arbiter of truth that can clarify this? The Pope?
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Old 06-22-2018, 09:23 PM   #46
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I never said any of these things.
Now you're just lying. Or...mentally deficient? You, in response to others in this thread:

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I don’t believe the lines between good and evil ARE blurry
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How could what you said ever be true?
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Many many actions are morally grey areas.
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moral absolutism only covers a handful of situations
Your words!

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I don't have the answers.
I agree. You don't.

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Who is the universal arbiter of truth that can clarify this?
It seems we both agree it isn't you. After all, you "don't have the answers."
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Old 06-22-2018, 09:39 PM   #47
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Ok, what I meant is that I am unclear if moral absolutism exists at all. It seems like we agree that most actions are morally ambiguous.

As I have just pointed out even the 10 commandments are at best vague guiding principles.

This is why classic black and white star wars plots are childish. They are not a reflection of the real world, which is filled with nuance.
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Old 06-22-2018, 09:53 PM   #48
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lol, a relativist posing as a moral objectivist.

Moral truths do not lose their veracity or universality at the hands of hypocrites or tribal survivalists.
There are lines that can be drawn because not everyone is civilized at the same time or at the same level and therefore paying attention to the same rules.

When they aren't holding to the rules and are a threat there is room for an alternative, hence the grey areas that MUST exist.

It is wrong to kill, but what if the person is threatening 1 million people and I can stop them? They clearly aren't playing by the same rules am I still to be held to them? Does that not make me the killer of 1 million people by my inaction? We have police because 5% of the population who are psychopaths or sociopaths aren't holding up their end of the social contract of our civilization.

We have armies because other civilizations who may or may not be as advanced as ours aren't going to be at the same place in writing their rule book. That's why England and Israel and the US get along better than, say China and the US, or Iran and the US. Or North Korea and the US.

Is it wrong to separate children from their family at any time? No, not at any time. When it is for the child's own safety.

When it is if the child is coming across the border illegally with their parent and their infraction was crossing the border? I guess you could make a claim of abuse due to the nature of the journey and the likely dangers. However it's not the same type of actual violence which I'd say would warrant removal so I'd say "no".

Outside of the punitive aspect there's no reason for the rule to take kids away. That Obama and every other President let it stand since late 90s isn't of any account because they aren't Presidents who ran on strong immigration platforms.

Shades of grey. There's a reason Star Wars is Galactic "Fantasy" or Science Fiction. They let the impossible, like pure white hats and black hats, exist. That doesn't get to happen often in the real world.

Arguably it doesn't happen in Star Wars either. Consider the case of Kylo Ren killing Snoke instead of Rey. Or Vader turning against Palpatine instead of forcing Luke to submit.
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:21 PM   #49
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Arguably it doesn't happen in Star Wars either. Consider the case of Kylo Ren killing Snoke instead of Rey. Or Vader turning against Palpatine instead of forcing Luke to submit.
But notice that you have a Snoke and a Palpatine. Poorly developed flat characters that are pure evil.

Kylo Ren doesn't count because in that example the movies seem to be going grey.
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Old 06-23-2018, 01:05 AM   #50
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But notice that you have a Snoke and a Palpatine. Poorly developed flat characters that are pure evil.

Kylo Ren doesn't count because in that example the movies seem to be going grey.
I'm confused. Why doesn't Kylo get to count? Why does Vader? He is clearly, at the end of Rogue One and throughout Star Wars OG, a superior bad guy. He wasn't a sycophant to Palpatine or an idiot. He was a true believer, not a yes man dancing on strings. He knew what the Death Star was, what it could (and did) do. He'd hunted Jedi down, killed kids.

Anakin thought he was doing the right thing just like Kylo does. Break a few eggs to make an omelet. Doesn't that make it a grey area too?
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Old 06-23-2018, 01:42 AM   #51
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How could what you said ever be true? Almost every great person in history also did terrible things.

Einstein was a monster to the women in his life. Andrew Jackson both saved New Orleans and was responsible for the trail of tears. Steve Jobs was both a visionary and a monster to people who knew him. People are not good or evil, and often actions are not good or evil either. They are typically both.

Weapons dealers do often sell to both sides in a war. Even an action like selling guns in a gun store is morally grey. Working for any conglomerate or buying stuff from a conglomerate like Nestle is also very grey.
There are a ton of places to dig into what you are saying. I'm not exactly sure where to start.

I guess, for one, why did you pick Albert Einstein and not Fred Rogers (Mr. Rogers) or, I dunno, my dad? You picked someone with a famous duality, but just because such people exist doesn't mean that EVERYONE has that same duality. There are many people who don't.

Secondly, you pick people like Albert Einstein and Steve Jobs as examples of the duality in the morality of man, but both Albert Einstein and Steve Jobs are famous for morally neutral things. Inventing the iPhone isn't a "good" thing. It just happened. He did a thing and it made him rich. As you point out, Steve Jobs was notably a very BAD person, morally. He was a bad friend, a bad father, a bad citizen, and a bad human being. So there really ISN'T much duality to be had there.

You mention a number of activities that are "morally grey", but I would argue that none of those things are morally grey. If we asked most of the people on this board if selling guns is morally grey, what would they say? They would say no. You might find a few that say it's wrong to sell guns. But just because something has two opposing opinions directed toward it doesn't make the activity "grey". It means that some people see it as white and other's see it as black. The two don't MIX into some other shade, as you seem to be suggesting.

People who LIKE the idea of moral relativity like to see it in media, but I can't think of ONE time I've seen it done well. The scene where Superman kills in Man Of Steel is completely contrived because, given the powers and abilities we've seen him use up until that point, it makes NO sense that Superman would give up and kill Zod. You can clearly see that the writer WANTS you to think that "he had no choice", but I look at the scene, it doesn't LOOK that way at all and it doesn't make sense for the story. The same goes for Batman V. Superman. The writer WANTS you to feel like there is moral grey area, but in reality, the movie is ham fisted and cobbled together in such a way that everyone is acting outside the realm of human behavior JUST for the purpose of trying to create an artificial context for "grey" to exist.

I would argue that The Last Jedi suffers the exact same problem. We see Luke act completely out of character, and we're given a bizarre untenable backstory to explain why this big misunderstanding happened.

Movies that try to be "grey" are most typically movies that fail to have a point of view. It's almost alway bad storytelling in service of trying to support a philosophical viewpoint that, illustrated, directly leads to bad storytelling.
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Old 06-23-2018, 06:20 AM   #52
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Anybody who characterizes Star Wars as 'black and white' rather than morally ambiguous isn't paying attention to the characters. Sure, the overarching conflict (rebellion v. empire/new order) is a fairly clean, simple morality play between good and evil, but most of the central individuals within the story struggle with their own mixed motivations and confused moral conundrums. Hell, even Vader waffles morally and returns to his son and goodness in the end (ep. 6).

There's plenty of personal, character-driven gray in SW. The overall tale is, however, quite simplistic in its moral tones.
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:26 AM   #53
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Anybody who characterizes Star Wars as 'black and white' rather than morally ambiguous isn't paying attention to the characters. Sure, the overarching conflict (rebellion v. empire/new order) is a fairly clean, simple morality play between good and evil, but most of the central individuals within the story struggle with their own mixed motivations and confused moral conundrums. Hell, even Vader waffles morally and returns to his son and goodness in the end (ep. 6).

There's plenty of personal, character-driven gray in SW. The overall tale is, however, quite simplistic in its moral tones.
I think you are missing the point. Vader waffles, you are right. But he waffles between the dark side and the light side. Two distinct moral poles. That doesn’t make him or his character Grey. The notion of moral Grey Area would be to suggest that a person does good things for a bad reason. Or bad things for a good reason.

“Would you kill an innocent stranger to save your child’s life?’ Something like that. This is the silliness that Batman v. Superman engages in when Batman is sure that he has to kill Superman because “if there is a possibility he could be a bad guy then we have to treat it as an absolute certainty”. Despite that being incredibly stupid.
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Old 06-23-2018, 11:15 AM   #54
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I think you are missing the point. Vader waffles, you are right. But he waffles between the dark side and the light side. Two distinct moral poles.
They're not separate poles, they're connected. It's one Force with a dark and light side, much like yin and yang. He moves back and forth on a continuum between dark and light. Dabble in the dark and you are drawn further to that side.

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That doesn’t make him or his character Grey.
Hell yeah, it does. And he's not the only one who does so, either.
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Old 06-23-2018, 11:45 AM   #55
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I'm sure they're going to be pissed mostly about our wanton destruction of the environment, and depending on what happens with global warming they will probably be pretty unhappy about that as well. If the temperature really does go up 5+ degrees its going to be a bad scene.
Except in reality the earth is moving into a cooling cycle. I guess those on the left like yourself will have a lot more temperature readings to doctor to push you agenda now. Sorry
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Old 06-23-2018, 01:16 PM   #56
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Except in reality the earth is moving into a cooling cycle. I guess those on the left like yourself will have a lot more temperature readings to doctor to push you agenda now. Sorry
My sincere hope for you is that you have a "what have I done?" moment before you die of something inevitably directly related to your own stupidity.
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Old 06-23-2018, 01:19 PM   #57
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If this is what a cooling cycle looks like than we are pretty fucked. I mean just the last 20 years do not look great for us. If this rate continues accelerating most of humanity is going to die in the next 200 years.

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Old 06-23-2018, 01:36 PM   #58
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Even if you believe individual actions can be purely classified as 100% good or evil, all humans engage in both good and evil actions so they are grey. You can play with definitions or whatever but in real life people and governments aren't pure evil or pure good, which for the most part is how things are depicted in star wars.

Bringing in weapons dealers and the business of war does allow the introduction of nuance. I said Kylo doesn't count because what he does in TLJ is breaking the mold. He is trying to break the cycle and it does add more complexity to the story. He was attempting to destroy both sides.

The people supplying weapons to both sides were also meant to depict the cycle, where nothing is really being accomplished in this endless war and perhaps both the empire and rebellion are just pawns being exploited by economic forces. Whether or not you believe in it, it is still an interesting point of view versus the basic good vs evil tale.
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Old 06-23-2018, 01:43 PM   #59
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If this is what a cooling cycle looks like than we are pretty fucked. I mean the just the last 20 years do not look great for us. If this rate continues accelerating most of humanity is going to die in the next 200 years.
I live in Arizona, so I can honestly tell you that Global warming is a lie. We are the hottest state in the country so if the temperature of the planet was getting warmer, then we would be feeling it here first and it just isn’t happening. It was hotter here in the summer back in the 80’s than it is now. If anything, I have seen average temperatures during our summer drop by about 5 degrees.

In the 80’s it wasn’t uncommon for it to hit 120 degrees every day for weeks in a row. Now, if you even see one or two 120 degree days it is newsworthy.

It’s just not happening. Look at the record winters we keep having and the average or normal summers. Plus, look at the arctic ice caps, they have been growing now for the better part of a decade. Sure, they did take a loss for a while there, but they are growing again. That wouldn’t be happening if Global Warming was real.

Al Gore said that Florida would be under water by 2010. LOL. Don’t get your information on the weather or the temperature of the planet from people who make a living telling you that there is a global temperature crisis. People who have their livelihood invested in lying to you will lie to you.
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Old 06-23-2018, 01:45 PM   #60
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I live in Arizona, so I can honestly tell you that Global warming is a lie. We are the hottest state in the country so if the temperature of the planet was getting warmer, then we would be feeling it here first and it just isn’t happening. It was hotter here in the summer back in the 80’s than it is now. If anything, I have seen average temperatures during our summer drop by about 5 degrees.

In the 80’s it wasn’t uncommon for it to hit 120 degrees every day for weeks in a row. Now, if you even see one or two 120 degree days it is newsworthy.

It’s just not happening. Look at the record winters we keep having and the average or normal summers. Plus, look at the arctic ice caps, they have been growing now for the better part of a decade. Sure, they did take a loss for a while there, but they are growing again. That wouldn’t be happening if Global Warming was real.

Al Gore said that Florida would be under water by 2010. LOL. Don’t get your information on the weather or the temperature of the planet from people who make a living telling you that there is a global temperature crisis. People who have their livelihood invested in lying to you will lie to you.
Binfuckinggo.
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