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Old 01-12-2018, 08:09 PM   #901
Whimbrel
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Originally Posted by SpectralThundr View Post
That's pretty much what you allude to, since you can't fathom how there are so many illegal votes every cycle.

Wow. Thanks. It takes a semblance of courage and integrity to admit that there is a difference between what I write and what you present as my argument.

This might make you happy. I am not in favor of voter fraud, lack of voter participation or engagement, voter suppression, voter intimidation, electioneering, or gerrymandering. I am not in favor of campaign spending laws that give wealthy donors more access and influence than others.

In any county or municipality where the election system is so poorly designed that it can be taken advantage of for fraudulent voting at any stage of the process, then they should fix that immediately. The public offices in each county should improve the way they share and check records and do what they can to make voter rolls as accurate as possible.

I have been presented several times in this thread as favoring voter fraud because it might benefit my party. That's pure bullshit. I think voter fraud should be addressed in proportion to the extent that it actually exists as a problem, not tolerated, and certainly not overstated in order to impose additional regulations that are burdensome to election officers, voters, and poll workers. Remember, I'm liberal. We're all about reducing government regulation.

So, if you want to address my thoughts on the issue, there it is.


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Originally Posted by SpectralThundr View Post
Voting fraud matters, yes it does affect elections greatly and it's always for the democrats. Lovely party and ideology you subscribe too, one that needs to cheat in elections to actually win them. Nice integrity you have there.
And there you go again. You write as if you think you are some well informed, angry bad ass. But putting words in my mouth and then judging me by what you make up as a strawman position that you substitute for my actual position is just about the most cowardly, chicken shit thing you can do. The first few times I thought maybe you didn't know better or you were really desperate to feel like you scored a few easy points by beating yourself, but at this point I just wonder if you are ever going to stop. It's one thing to be chicken shit anonymously, or secretly or even rarely, but you are doing this over and over and you are putting it in writing. Don't you realize that each time you mischaracterize what I wrote somebody can just scroll up and see that you are strawman beating off again? What's the point? I mean what do you get out of that?
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:41 PM   #902
SpectralThundr
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Originally Posted by Whimbrel View Post
Wow. Thanks. It takes a semblance of courage and integrity to admit that there is a difference between what I write and what you present as my argument.

This might make you happy. I am not in favor of voter fraud, lack of voter participation or engagement, voter suppression, voter intimidation, electioneering, or gerrymandering. I am not in favor of campaign spending laws that give wealthy donors more access and influence than others.

In any county or municipality where the election system is so poorly designed that it can be taken advantage of for fraudulent voting at any stage of the process, then they should fix that immediately. The public offices in each county should improve the way they share and check records and do what they can to make voter rolls as accurate as possible.

I have been presented several times in this thread as favoring voter fraud because it might benefit my party. That's pure bullshit. I think voter fraud should be addressed in proportion to the extent that it actually exists as a problem, not tolerated, and certainly not overstated in order to impose additional regulations that are burdensome to election officers, voters, and poll workers. Remember, I'm liberal. We're all about reducing government regulation.

So, if you want to address my thoughts on the issue, there it is.




And there you go again. You write as if you think you are some well informed, angry bad ass. But putting words in my mouth and then judging me by what you make up as a strawman position that you substitute for my actual position is just about the most cowardly, chicken shit thing you can do. The first few times I thought maybe you didn't know better or you were really desperate to feel like you scored a few easy points by beating yourself, but at this point I just wonder if you are ever going to stop. It's one thing to be chicken shit anonymously, or secretly or even rarely, but you are doing this over and over and you are putting it in writing. Don't you realize that each time you mischaracterize what I wrote somebody can just scroll up and see that you are strawman beating off again? What's the point? I mean what do you get out of that?
Dude you constantly shill for the left, are you a conservative? That's the other thing that drives me nuts, liberals never want to identify that they are liberals. It's as if they know they're on the wrong side of reality and history so they just continue shilling the the left while claiming innocence.

What strawman? You were the one who made the allusion that vote fraud isn't a big deal. I provided links proving to you that it isn't. Then you had a hissy fit. Fucking just own up to it, your political party is based on lots of fraud.
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:32 PM   #903
Terran
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I think voter fraud should be addressed in proportion to the extent that it actually exists as a problem
Then you must be on board with an aggressive response, because elections are often decided by a handful of votes (one in VA was a coin toss! Bush won the presidency by hundreds of votes!) which means that however you may argue over the scale...wait for it...wait for it...

IT'S A BIG DEAL.
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Old 01-13-2018, 02:19 AM   #904
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Hell until now he believed it was hardly happening, in todays age with all the tools we have available, it is so easy to actually research topics that interest. Yet liberals seem to never actually do any research outside of their bubble of news sources anyway really.
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Old 01-13-2018, 02:12 PM   #905
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I've noticed this. They seem stuck in the past. Willfully ignorant. It explains why they get clobbered online. Little logic and fact. Just emotions.
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Old 01-13-2018, 06:29 PM   #906
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So, briefly, my one concern in what you have presented is that you took several comments from specific discussions with other people and ignored the points I was responding to, even when I am confident that with your reading ability and thoughtfulness you would recognize that I was being presented with multiple days of absolutely inconsistent, illogical, and inaccurate comments, questions, and responses, not to mention the constant insults. So, under those circumstances, and only presenting one side of the arguments as if they were on their own, I will stipulate that it does not make a very coherent statement on any of the issues covered. I only wish that you would hold Terran, Blackcz, and SpectralThunder to the same critique. I think in each case their lack of logic, adequate response, or simple trolling would exceed what you have picked of my own.
The major theme of my post was to show that you were demanding things that you yourself weren't offering in the same circumstances. With that in mind, I don't think the hopping around was an issue when that point is considered. Another point was that the backdrop of the latest argument is the tax bill that was passed. I didn't bother going further back to your entrance into this specific issue in an effort to illustrate an issue to me. Plus, you get a drawn out post from me because I lack the brevity that Chief and Pacer have.

As for offering the same critique to others, wouldn't that be something I could quote and add to the previous post in the same vein? Your critiques aren't offered towards every poster, and I'm guessing it's largely for the same reason -- you critique the person(s) that you're arguing against.

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Having said that, is there really any view of mine that you are interested in discussing aside from stating that you disagree or that you feel I am incorrect? Is there any point I made that you are actually interested in seeing my source for or having me try to justify. If so, I will try, but if not, I completely accept that in your presentation of quotes from the past several pages from just my side of multiple arguments that there is plenty about which reasonable people would disagree in content and presentation.
There were views of yours which I disagreed in the previous post, so you may pick those if you'd like to continue them. I'll offer a few more. Here is the biggest:
Why do you believe liberal policies will suddenly help this income inequality gap (note: I don't think an income inequality gap is a problem by itself)? As I linked to earlier, liberal policies appear to have lead to the highest poverty rate in the country. Liberal policies like the ACA have further been shown to slam the middle class (links provided through the same link above).

My view, which I believe is generally agreed upon by many conservatives on this board, is that these liberal policies and programs do more to reduce economic mobility than actually providing some sort of liberal promises.

In regards to these massive programs and/or bills which it seems you want to either redistribute money or simply tax the wealthy, what about the actual outcome of the ACA? Here is an article that is championing the bill, declaring that the ACA was helping the poor by taxing the rich and corporations:
Quote:
Originally Posted by USA Today
By taxing rich households and big corporations to subsidize health care for working families, the ACA does what good public policy should: level the playing field to give everyone a shot, not just those at the top. Abolishing the ACA would only further tilt the field in favor of the wealthy and well-connected.
What I highlighted seems to ignore how the poor and middle class are also paying for this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boston Globe
In 2015, IRS Commissioner John Koskinen reported to Congress, about 6.5 million American households paid the tax penalty for not having health insurance. The fine isnít trivial. Tax filers this year who donít acquire health insurance must pay the government a fee equal to $695 per adult plus $347.50 per child, or 2.5 percent of total family income ó whichever is greater. Yet, steep as the penalty is, millions of Americans would rather fork it over than buy medical insurance they donít want or canít afford. Nearly 80 percent of those who paid the fee in 2015 earned less than $50,000.
Even the article I provided explaining why people are paying the fine over buying insurance is leaning in the ACA's favor and an issue -- framing it as "rather" implies there is actually a choice, when it may not be for many of these people. Here is an image that also shows much of the issue:


It's not that conservatives don't want people to have access to healthcare (paying for insurance does not automatically equate to access to healthcare), it's that the system is so screwed up that people - a lot of people - are going to lose in an effort for others to win. Case in point: those with preexisting conditions. Do I want them to not have access to healthcare? No, but that doesn't remove the economic reality. These people weren't denied coverage because insurance companies simply wanted to, it was because the cost to cover them outweighed what they could truly charge them. If your medical bills are regularly $5,000 a month... that insurance company is going to either need more than $5,000 a month from that individual, or be able to spread that cost to others -- which is exactly what the ACA was designed to do. The idea that the rich and corporations were simply going to foot the bill was known to be false from the get-go, but despite this, that talking-point continues to be repeated.

Even ACA supporters know that the ACA is a odd system, which creates incentives to remain at a lower income ;eve; in some cases:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Federalist
This has been a persistent cause for concern even for some Obamacare supporters. Back in October, Cal-Berkley law professor and former Treasury official David Gamage (a self-avowed Obamacare supporter) wrote in the Wall Street Journal: ďConsider a low-income American supporting a family of four deciding whether to take a part-time job that pays $36,000 a year or a full-time job that pays $42,000 a year. According to my research, accepting the higher-paying job could result in the family losing over $10,000 a year in health-care subsidies.Ē


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Originally Posted by Whimbrel View Post
Deficit and budget issues aside, I disagree with the economic effects of this tax plan as you report them. My family will get a very small tax cut, but I would expect that it will be more than offset by increases in other costs and expenses borne by cuts to programs that benefit my community.
Before I get into this, what amount are you labeling a "very small cut"? Also, how much federal income tax, which isn't to include social security and whatnot, did you pay before this cut?

Also, what level of income do you believe is deserving of paying higher taxes?
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Old 01-13-2018, 10:32 PM   #907
SpectralThundr
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Wow. Thanks. It takes a semblance of courage and integrity to admit that there is a difference between what I write and what you present as my argument.

This might make you happy. I am not in favor of voter fraud, lack of voter participation or engagement, voter suppression, voter intimidation, electioneering, or gerrymandering. I am not in favor of campaign spending laws that give wealthy donors more access and influence than others.

In any county or municipality where the election system is so poorly designed that it can be taken advantage of for fraudulent voting at any stage of the process, then they should fix that immediately. The public offices in each county should improve the way they share and check records and do what they can to make voter rolls as accurate as possible.

I have been presented several times in this thread as favoring voter fraud because it might benefit my party. That's pure bullshit. I think voter fraud should be addressed in proportion to the extent that it actually exists as a problem, not tolerated, and certainly not overstated in order to impose additional regulations that are burdensome to election officers, voters, and poll workers. Remember, I'm liberal. We're all about reducing government regulation.

So, if you want to address my thoughts on the issue, there it is.




And there you go again. You write as if you think you are some well informed, angry bad ass. But putting words in my mouth and then judging me by what you make up as a strawman position that you substitute for my actual position is just about the most cowardly, chicken shit thing you can do. The first few times I thought maybe you didn't know better or you were really desperate to feel like you scored a few easy points by beating yourself, but at this point I just wonder if you are ever going to stop. It's one thing to be chicken shit anonymously, or secretly or even rarely, but you are doing this over and over and you are putting it in writing. Don't you realize that each time you mischaracterize what I wrote somebody can just scroll up and see that you are strawman beating off again? What's the point? I mean what do you get out of that?
Are you in favor of requiring ID to vote? Are you in favor of preventing people from voting multiple times in the same election? Have you managed to do your own research in realizing how big an issue voter fraud is currently? Are you against illegals being allowed to vote?

It isn't difficult to "score points" Not that scoring points is even the goal, it's to educate idiots like you who can't be half assed to deal in facts and reality rather than your precious feel feels.
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Old 01-14-2018, 07:48 AM   #908
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I know, right! Let's hope he won't be so damn lazy next time and can just support some of his claims or just admit he has no idea what he is talking about.

For the record, voter fraud = statistically insignificant problem for election results. Voter turnout actual problem worth addressing.
Yep. That and gerrymandering of districts.

And it seems you're the guy bearing the brunt of trying to educate a large portion of the forum today on very basic things they get wrong, so thank you for your efforts.
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Also, Telltale signed with xbox, with fear that if they released Jurassic Park on the PS3, the dinosaurs would get loose.
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Old 01-14-2018, 11:16 AM   #909
Terran
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Yep.
Hey, look, the 'not a liberal progressive' is parroting liberal progressive talking points!

"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

Own it and stop lying. The truth will set you free to be stupid.
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:32 PM   #910
SpectralThundr
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Yep. That and gerrymandering of districts.

And it seems you're the guy bearing the brunt of trying to educate a large portion of the forum today on very basic things they get wrong, so thank you for your efforts.
Yeah because illegals being allowed to vote in US elections is simply no big deal. I really wish communists like you would go spend a year in North Korea, you'd likely be a conservative in no time.

The left supports sanctuary cities, if you are a progressive that supports sanctuary cities in turn you support voter fraud wholesale.
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Old 01-14-2018, 02:03 PM   #911
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Originally Posted by Phoenix1985 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whimbrel
I know, right! Let's hope he won't be so damn lazy next time and can just support some of his claims or just admit he has no idea what he is talking about.

For the record, voter fraud = statistically insignificant problem for election results. Voter turnout actual problem worth addressing.
Yep. That and gerrymandering of districts.

And it seems you're the guy bearing the brunt of trying to educate a large portion of the forum today on very basic things they get wrong, so thank you for your efforts.
Your stance really seems like it's merely about pushing your political views rather than the case at hand. You agree with Whimbrel that voter fraud is an statistically insignificant problem, pretty much dismissing it as nothing, but are upset over a lack of voter participation and gerrymandering. What's the difference? The general claims are that fraud helps Democrats, but gerrymandering and a lack of participation are currently hurting Democrats. As posted earlier:
Quote:
Originally Posted by WAPO
How many non-citizens participate in U.S. elections? More than 14 percent of non-citizens in both the 2008 and 2010 samples indicated that they were registered to vote. Furthermore, some of these non-citizens voted. Our best guess, based upon extrapolations from the portion of the sample with a verified vote, is that 6.4 percent of non-citizens voted in 2008 and 2.2 percent of non-citizens voted in 2010.
If correct, 6.5% is not statistically insignificant. Considering the framing of the issues, it would seem plausible to me that the number of non-citizens voting in 2016 may have increased.

However, I think most would consider 0.01% (based on 2,700,000 votes being cast) to be statistically insignificant. Yet that's likely around the % of vote which ultimately resulted in Al Franken's election:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbes
The latest revelations that illegal votes may have given Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) his 312-vote margin of victory in his 2008 Senate race—out of the nearly 3 million votes cast—gives one pause. The fact that 243 people have already been convicted or are awaiting trial on voter fraud underscores a persistent concern that, despite their small share of the vote, ineligible ballots can actually swing results.
The election of Al Franken lead to a 60-vote Democrat majority. You're aware of what the resulted from that majority, right?

Gerrymandering and voter fraud are issues. I don't believe a voluntary lack of participation is an issue, assuming these people are choosing not to participate. I guess you think it'd sway more votes in your favor, especially since you're posting about "trying to educate" people with your ignorant stance.

Gerrymandering, which unfortunately has been a fixture of us politics since early on, seems to be only wrong because it's not helping Democrats. Liberal courts have enforced gerrymandering in favor of getting minorities elected:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commentary
The Democrats problem isn’t so much nefarious GOP maneuvers to create favorable boundaries for their candidates, as it is the Voting Rights Act that has created so many majority-minority districts. If all the lawsuits are successful, it will be African-American and Hispanic Democratic officeholders that are the big losers, not the Republicans.


As even the Post article noted, the current Democratic court challenges to various districts around the country don’t amount to enough seats to tip the House in their direction even if they were all successful. But the goal is to set in place legal standards that would forbid states from lumping a large percentage of their African-American voters in to a few districts, leaving the rest dominated by white voters.

There’s no question that this practice has been a godsend for Republicans and a disaster for the Democrats. African-Americans are a huge part of the Democrats’ base throughout the country. In the south, they have become virtually their sole bulwark of support. Thus, grouping them together in a few districts has the effect of making the Democrats non-competitive everywhere else.

But what was left out of the Post article is the fact that this idea wasn’t invented in a backroom by some evil GOP genius bent on marginalizing blacks and empowering conservatives. Instead, it was more or less invented by liberal judges who interpreted the Voting Rights Act as mandating not just the right of everyone to vote but the creation of an electoral environment in which minorities could be set up to succeed.
Anything for your cause though, right? I think your general attitude is how Trump came into office -- people are tired of having rules apply to one-side.
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Old 01-14-2018, 05:50 PM   #912
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Yep. That and gerrymandering of districts.

And it seems you're the guy bearing the brunt of trying to educate a large portion of the forum today on very basic things they get wrong, so thank you for your efforts.
Ever wonder why people turn from liberal to conservative but almost never the other way round?

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Anything for your cause though, right? I think your general attitude is how Trump came into office -- people are tired of having rules apply to one-side.
There is a good chance they are literally shill activist. One stop among a hundred per day. I've been seeing to much of it over the past couple years to discount the possibility.

This is why i'm the way i am at this point. The left is wrong but fuck are they committed.
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