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Old 01-12-2018, 06:05 AM   #881
SacredWeasel
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TIL

Whimbel is an alt.
Chief Smash is an alt.
Yes, just as much as agnostic pope was an alt of Anenome...

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A highly underrated game I recommend to everyone. Oldie, but a what's there not to love about a shark gun?
Giants: Citizen Kabuto is better imo, but like one and you'll probably like the other.
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Old 01-12-2018, 06:54 AM   #882
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I'm too lazy to have more than one account. I just rarely post here these days because I sometimes just get exasperated by these debates. But just out of curiosity, who do you think I'm an alt of?
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Old 01-12-2018, 06:56 AM   #883
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Hulk?

"Hulk Smash!"
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Why would Republicans pass such a terrible tax law? lol...

Giving people more of their own money...WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS? :D
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:36 AM   #884
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I'm on my side and that of my family.



In self-defense, I'm CWP-inspired "Armed & Dangerous."*

* A highly underrated game I recommend to everyone. Oldie, but a what's there not to love about a shark gun?
Your family VS a collective of an entire foreign invasion, invited or not. You are the reason they are poor Terran. You. They want what you have, you took it from them. They deserve it. Its their precious, yes it is.

Good luck, your gonna need it. The collective is always more powerful than the individualist in the short term. Long term, different story. But that dont matter if you happen to be out of sync with your timeline. It can happen.
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:38 AM   #885
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I'm too lazy to have more than one account. I just rarely post here these days because I sometimes just get exasperated by these debates. But just out of curiosity, who do you think I'm an alt of?
That sounds just like something an alt would say.
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:44 AM   #886
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That sounds just like something an alt would say.
You're probably right. But again, whose alt am I? It better be someone good.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:15 AM   #887
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90% of workers across America will have more take-home pay starting in February thanks to the Republican tax law.

OMG/ONOZ!

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Good luck, you're gonna need it.
Who needs luck? I have skill and a 9 mil.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:18 AM   #888
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That sounds just like something an alt would say.
Let it be officially known, I will back up any government, of any stripe.. that takes this dipshit out back and shoots him.
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Old 01-12-2018, 01:18 PM   #889
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Originally Posted by blackzc
That sounds just like something an alt would say.
Let it be officially known, I will back up any government, of any stripe.. that takes this dipshit out back and shoots him.
While I think blackzc is a racist fool, I think you should look at what you're saying here, AlfredT.
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Many cultures of the world marry girls off after their first menses, around 13 years old. I can't say that's inherently immoral, no.
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Old 01-12-2018, 01:39 PM   #890
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If you care enough to disagree with him then do the research yourself. "Citation needed" is a typical tactic of leftists who are trying to wear down their opponent. It's not a research paper, it's a forum argument. It often works too because people on the right are usually busy with more important things like having jobs, raising kids, and taking care of houses.

In other news, Google is more insane than you probably think.
Thanks for weighing in. In this case, he made 4 or 5 very specific and inaccurate claims in one post while simultaneously claiming that I deserved to be treated like shit because I lacked intellectual honesty. It wasn't so much an issue of disagreement in this case as that I was trying to point out the irony of somebody being dishonest while claiming that dishonest people deserved to be treated like shit.

Because of the dissolution of the president's voter fraud panel the news has been rife with stories about this issue, so the difficulty of research was never the question as much as calling him on false claims and his standard for when he should be treated like shit for making false claims that he could not back up, ie, intellectual honesty.
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:01 PM   #891
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Specific stories of voter fraud have been commonplace all over the country for years. To start asking for sources now, as if these sources haven't been commonplace for decades is, in my opinion, intellectually dishonest. One town over from me (in the very blue state of CT), there are always stories of buses of people going from polling location to polling location. It's pretty common knowledge but nobody really bothers with it. We've had democrat operatives caught on video admitting that they bus people to various polling places but instead of doing something, we attack the guy who recorded the videos. When I hear how it's not a problem, I seethe inside. It may not be a problem for you but it certainly is a problem. While we're talking about being intellectually honest... With regards to the voter turnout "problem", I highly doubt you would feel it was a problem if all of those non-voters leaned right. You want them all to vote because you think they're on your side. But if they can't be bothered to educate themselves on philosophy and politics, then they shouldn't be voting.
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:30 PM   #892
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Yeah. Your principles are admirably flexible. In one day you have thanked wal-mart for raising wages and closing stores, claimed that this reduces unemployment while mocking the idea of thousands losing their jobs, and thanked Republicans and the president for causing walmart to raise wages and close stores and then said that it is a bad thing except when Liberals force it.
It would appear that your principles are rather flexible, Whimbrel. How did Republicans and/or the president force Walmart to close these Sam's Clubs? According to the article you provided, the reason for the closing was this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Business Insider
"After a thorough review, it became clear we had built clubs in some locations that impacted other clubs, and where population had not grown as anticipated," Furner said in the email. "We will be closing some clubs, and we notified them today. We'll convert some of them into eCommerce fulfillment centers — to better serve the growing number of members shopping with us online and continue scaling the SamsClub.com business."
Furner claims it was due to location and points to the pivot to online shopping. This appears to be a business decision rather than the result of government increasing the burden on business, and an increased burden on business leading to lost jobs is often a hallmark of liberal policies. That's the difference.


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I know, right! Let's hope he won't be so damn lazy next time and can just support some of his claims or just admit he has no idea what he is talking about.

For the record, voter fraud = statistically insignificant problem for election results. Voter turnout actual problem worth addressing.
Voter fraud is an issue, having a larger effect with tighter races. Forbes:
Quote:
The latest revelations that illegal votes may have given Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) his 312-vote margin of victory in his 2008 Senate race—out of the nearly 3 million votes cast—gives one pause. The fact that 243 people have already been convicted or are awaiting trial on voter fraud underscores a persistent concern that, despite their small share of the vote, ineligible ballots can actually swing results.
If there were 2,700,000 votes in that election, 312 votes = 0.011555555555555555%. Far less than 1% of the votes cast could have been fraudulent, but may have decided the election. Other more recent elections have been decided by even closer margins, with this one as an example. Don't worry about not providing sources, just cite flexibility.

As for the rate of voter turnout, how is that a problem? If people choose not to vote, why is that an issue? I'd wager it's because you think it'd push result in more of your liberal policies getting passed.

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Why would you think there is a massive problem with voter fraud? I'm assuming that there is a better reason than Trump said so. I have worked in elections for over a decade in the largest county in my state and the amount of fraud is negligible. Similarly, the amount of documentation that goes in to voter registration, signatures, etc, is pretty formidable, so what you are claiming seems absolutely false. Is there a tiny amount of fraud, sure. Is it enough to cause a problem with election results? I don't think so.
Flexibility again, I see. Here is are two different sources:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMU/ODU Study
Our exploration of non-citizen voting in the 2008 presidential election found that most non-citizens did not register or vote in 2008, but some did. The proportion of noncitizens who voted was less than fifteen percent, but significantly greater than zero. Similarly in 2010 we found that more than three percent of non-citizens reported voting.

These results speak to both sides of the debate concerning non-citizen enfranchisement. They support the claims made by some anti-immigration organizations that non-citizens participate in U.S. elections. In addition, the analysis suggests that non-citizens' votes have
changed significant election outcomes including the assignment of North Carolina's 2008 electoral votes, and the pivotal Minnesota Senate victory of Democrat Al Franken in 2008.

However, our results also support the arguments made by voting and immigrant rights organizations that the portion of non-citizen immigrants who participate in U.S. elections is quite small. Indeed, given the extraordinary efforts made by the Obama and McCain campaigns to mobilize voters in 2008, the relatively small portion of noncitizens who voted in 2008 likely exceeded the portion of non-citizens voting in other recent U.S. elections.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WAPO
How many non-citizens participate in U.S. elections? More than 14 percent of non-citizens in both the 2008 and 2010 samples indicated that they were registered to vote. Furthermore, some of these non-citizens voted. Our best guess, based upon extrapolations from the portion of the sample with a verified vote, is that 6.4 percent of non-citizens voted in 2008 and 2.2 percent of non-citizens voted in 2010.
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My larger question would be more along the lines of given any social or economic issue in the US, do conservatives always blame the poorest and weakest as opposed to the wealthiest and most powerful? Are liberals the opposite?
I don't believe conservatives do. Of course, I don't think this is a real question, but allow me to ask one in the same vein as yours: why do liberals seem to want to place more hurdles in the way of the poorest and weakest, making their lives more difficult, while ensuring that the wealthiest and most powerful retain special privileges and protection?

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My guess is that the reason most liberals opposed this tax plan was that it was based on trickle down economics at a time of already extreme wealth inequality in the country. Having said that, I don't see the existence of a political reality that would have created a bipartisan tax bill that truly and primarily addressed the needs of American working families that both sides would have supported, and in terms of the immediate effects of this policy, it definitely could have been much, much worse. My gut says mot people just really wanted to see the GOP lose and lose big. When the dust settled, I think the left got off much better than it could have been if this was a make the rich richer and screw over everybody else plan only.
A source for your claims? No? Okay, flexibility it is. Do liberal policies not result in the rich richer and avoid screwing over everyone else? Well, lets look at Commiefornia California. According to the ultra right-wing Politifact said in 2017:
Quote:
TRUE: California has the nation’s highest poverty rate, when factoring in cost-of-living
The Sacremento Bee reported in 2014:
Quote:
California continues to have – by far – the nation’s highest level of poverty under an alternative method devised by the Census Bureau that takes into account both broader measures of income and the cost of living.

Nearly a quarter of the state’s 38 million residents (8.9 million) live in poverty, a new Census Bureau report says, a level virtually unchanged since the agency first began reporting on the method’s effects.

Under the traditional method of gauging poverty, adopted a half-century ago, California’s rate is 16 percent (6.1 million residents), somewhat above the national rate of 14.9 percent but by no means the highest. That dubious honor goes to New Mexico at 21.5 percent.

But under the alternative method, California rises to the top at 23.4 percent while New Mexico drops to 16 percent and other states decline to as low as 8.7 percent in Iowa.
California has long been a leader in liberal policies, with liberal policies being what you appear to champion, but their implementation reportedly has resulted in the highest rate of poverty in the country when silly things like the cost of living are accounted for.

The Middle Class is an essential cow to politicians of all parties with aspirations of really raising tax revenue, therefore leading them to being hit (along with the poor) with all of these policies, programs, etc. which are sold as being "help." You're not going to simply milk the upper class to pay for all these programs that liberals have decided we need.

You were, and I'd wager continue to be, a champion of the ACA:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewsMax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbes
These subsidies have to be paid for somehow. The Affordable Care Act has two main mechanisms for paying the bill: taxes and higher insurance premiums for some. There are a multitude of taxes to help pay for the subsidies. However, the taxes have been known for a while. What is a surprise to some people are the higher insurance premiums that ordinary, middle class Americans suddenly face so that other ordinary Americans can enjoy lower prices.
You've stated your belief (without sourcing it, mind you) that this tax bill would simply make the rich richer at the expense of everyone else. Yet you've stated that you expect to receive a tax reduction yourself:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whimbrel View Post
My family will get a very small tax cut, but I would expect that it will be more than offset by increases in other costs and expenses borne by cuts to programs that benefit my community.
What other costs and benefits that your receive will be cut by this tax bill? Will you and your community use that additional money to fill the gap to these supposed program cuts to your community?
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:34 PM   #893
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Specific stories of voter fraud have been commonplace all over the country for years. To start asking for sources now, as if these sources haven't been commonplace for decades is, in my opinion, intellectually dishonest. I highly doubt you would feel it was a problem if all of those non-voters leaned right. You want them all to vote because you think they're on your side. But if they can't be bothered to educate themselves on philosophy and politics, then they shouldn't be voting.
First off, I did not ask him to support the claims of voter fraud in general, just his specific examples. You can go back and look at them.

Secondly, the reason I don't think it is a huge problem is because it is such a small number of votes relative to the total, not because I have some inside knowledge about who fraudulent voters are voting for compared to who legal voters are voting for.

Thirdly, on a personal note, I run elections for my county and I have done it for over a decade, maybe close to 15 years now. I work my ass off to make sure that every voter's vote counts and that there is no foul play with anything related to the election or voting. People on this forum love to put words in my mouth and try to tell me what I can or can't say, judge me for what they think I think while completely ignoring when I state my own opinions and beliefs. Fine. I think the people who do that are dumbasses and are not really worth talking to. But I am getting pretty fed up with this bullshit about how I want their to be voter fraud because it benefits my political views. I would bet that I have worked harder than anybody else on this forum, probably everybody combined to protect people's rights to vote and preserve election integrity, and I am in a red state. I don't do it for personal benefit and I don't do it to benefit my party. I do it because I value the ideal of democracy, which is far greater than my one view on things at this point in history. So, kindly shove that shit right out the door. (also, I am very proud of the way this county preserves the integrity of the election so that every eligible voter's vote counts and I am saddened when other areas fuck this up so badly that they allow improper voting to occur. I would have no problem if every county in the nation adopted our election laws, including voter ID, which is a requirement here.)

Fourthly, one of my largest problems with certain elements of the conservative movement right now is the lack of scale in addressing problems. For example, if there were 10,000 illegal votes in the past election, what proportion of that came from undocumented immigrants and what came from US citizens? If we pretended that 5% of those illegal votes were from undocumented citizens, do you think conservatives would be 20 times more incensed about voter fraud among US citizens than among undocumented citizens? Earlier in this thread I raised this same point in regards to crime. Crime against US citizens is overwhelmingly caused by other citizens, but the disproportionate focus on crime by undocumented immigrants looks like the right has collectively failed a math test crossed with racism. Obviously nobody is ever going to admit to being a racist or an idiot, but when asked about the disproportionate concern about crime he responded that the question of disproportionality is a "red herring." And I believe he honestly thinks that because he doesn't' see disproportionate focus on a small minority as a problem, although that is the basis of racism. He won't see it.

Lastly, if somebody had an idea of how a conspiracy for wide scale voter fraud could happen, I am still curious. I have given it a lot of thought and I am confident it could not happen here without inside help from the election office and a cherry picked corrupt staff at a specific location. Even then, I don't see how it could get past the software which would pick up on any uptick in double voting. Plus every voter's signature is matched against historical public records, so I have a hard time seeing how that could happen in large numbers.
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:48 PM   #894
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It would appear that your principles are rather flexible, Whimbrel.
Venom, your response deserves respect. You went through several pages, apparently read very carefully, and wrote very thoughtfully. I can neither criticize your approach, nor do I see anything that would justify anything uncivil. I have no problem with being held to the standards I advocate for others and in cases where I exhibit a double standard I absolutely should be called on it.

So, briefly, my one concern in what you have presented is that you took several comments from specific discussions with other people and ignored the points I was responding to, even when I am confident that with your reading ability and thoughtfulness you would recognize that I was being presented with multiple days of absolutely inconsistent, illogical, and inaccurate comments, questions, and responses, not to mention the constant insults. So, under those circumstances, and only presenting one side of the arguments as if they were on their own, I will stipulate that it does not make a very coherent statement on any of the issues covered. I only wish that you would hold Terran, Blackcz, and SpectralThunder to the same critique. I think in each case their lack of logic, adequate response, or simple trolling would exceed what you have picked of my own.

Having said that, is there really any view of mine that you are interested in discussing aside from stating that you disagree or that you feel I am incorrect? Is there any point I made that you are actually interested in seeing my source for or having me try to justify. If so, I will try, but if not, I completely accept that in your presentation of quotes from the past several pages from just my side of multiple arguments that there is plenty about which reasonable people would disagree in content and presentation.
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Old 01-12-2018, 03:34 PM   #895
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Venom, your response deserves respect.
And then you proceed to ignore it completely.

Venom has a gift for patience with idiots that I lack.
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:10 PM   #896
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And then you proceed to ignore it completely.

Venom has a gift for patience with idiots that I lack.
Same, I'd rather just call them the dumbfuck they are and move on. "Vote fraud doesn't matter" Good fucking god.
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Old 01-12-2018, 05:21 PM   #897
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Same, I'd rather just call them the dumbfuck they are and move on. "Vote fraud doesn't matter" Good fucking god.

You do realize you are quoting yourself and calling yourself a dumbfuck, right? Since I didn't say that.

I can't be completely sure if it is because you can't tell the difference between what I write and what you make up, or because you get yourself so upset about your imaginary statements that you attribute to other people.

So far you have argued that you should be treated like shit for being dishonest and that you are a dumbfuck. I think we agree on more than you originally assumed, but do me a favor and go for three.
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Old 01-12-2018, 05:42 PM   #898
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You do realize you are quoting yourself and calling yourself a dumbfuck, right? Since I didn't say that.

I can't be completely sure if it is because you can't tell the difference between what I write and what you make up, or because you get yourself so upset about your imaginary statements that you attribute to other people.

So far you have argued that you should be treated like shit for being dishonest and that you are a dumbfuck. I think we agree on more than you originally assumed, but do me a favor and go for three.
That's pretty much what you allude to, since you can't fathom how there are so many illegal votes every cycle.
http://www.heritage.org/election-int...-2016-election

From the link that you likely won't read and educate yourself on why illegal voting is a problem. "To put this number of fraudulent votes in perspective, Hillary Clinton won New Hampshire by fewer than 3,000 votes out of over 700,000 cast. Just this number of duplicate votes alone has the power to swing state results and, in turn, elections.

Unfortunately, New Hampshire refused to turn over their data for this study.

There have been other razor-tight elections in recent years. In 2000, the presidency was decided by 537 votes out of a total of 105 million cast. In 2008, Al Franken won his Minnesota Senate race by a mere 312 votes. He ended up being the deciding vote that gave this country Obamacare."

Voting fraud matters, yes it does affect elections greatly and it's always for the democrats. Lovely party and ideology you subscribe too, one that needs to cheat in elections to actually win them. Nice integrity you have there.
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Old 01-12-2018, 05:58 PM   #899
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Let it be officially known, I will back up any government, of any stripe.. that takes this dipshit out back and shoots him.
Imagine me having to spell out every fucking tongue in cheek comment i make because mental lightweights like yourself cant even into sarcasm.

Don't @me anymore fgt.

^That was sarcasm. I am fully aware that this message board is not twitter, or a youtube live stream chat box.

You stupid fuck.

Anyway...
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To start asking for sources now, as if these sources haven't been commonplace for decades is, in my opinion, intellectually dishonest. .
I don't think it is because the cheating is so one sided. Its undermining the will of the people. If both sides did and it mostly came out a wash then i wouldn't care.
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Old 01-12-2018, 06:04 PM   #900
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Imagine me having to spell out every fucking tongue in cheek comment i make because mental lightweights like yourself cant even into sarcasm.

Don't @me anymore fgt.

^That was sarcasm. I am fully aware that this message board is not twitter, or a youtube live stream chat box.

You stupid fuck.

Anyway...


I don't think it is because the cheating is so one sided. Its undermining the will of the people. If both sides did and it mostly came out a wash then i wouldn't care.
Which is why liberals pretend it doesn't exists, because it's always fraud in the favor of democrats. Gee wonder why that's so?
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