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Old 04-07-2013, 02:03 PM   #21
vallor
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Originally Posted by Kreigmstr View Post
They are my kid's because the community is not bearing any of the financial, emotional, or potential legal burden of raising them. Myself and my wife are the ones that make the sacrifices to raise our 2 kids.
As ONE tiny example: I pay plenty for lots of people's kids through income taxes and (especially) local property taxes that YEARLY go up to support schools hosting children that are yours and not mine.

You are getting far more material, financial, and societal support then you seem to think you are.
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:13 PM   #22
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Unless you plan to die before you retire, you will reap far more from the children of today when they are of working age than you will ever pay in taxes for their schools and the like. You should thank every adult who unselfishly rears responsible children to adulthood, because they are the only way your Medicare and Social Security will have a prayer of existing.

Fact.

Now, you may not be one of "those folks" who complain vociferously about supporting others' children through their taxes while having none of their own, but to those who are such people, and not necessarily you, I say STFU, you selfish jerkwads, for 'enjoying' the selfish life at BOTH ends, not just at retirement. My kids will pay through the nose as working adults for your exceedingly generous benefits, which far outstrip any amount you paid in or spent on their public school, while you have far more disposable income during your child-bearing years because of not having kids, and then pull out of the system in retirement far more than you ever put in. Feel free not to have kids, but don't tell me they're costing you. THEY WILL SUPPORT YOUR OLD ARSE IN RETIREMENT. The bane of every society is a demographic timebomb of a shrinking population. Without kids, you (and I) would all be screwed. Even with them, we're broke, lol.

Additionally, many families with children don't even use the public schools. They pay twice, toward property taxes and then either for private schooling or homeschooling (and all the material expenses that implies, in books the school would ordinarily buy, and in lost income for one parent to stay home).

Reality is a harsh mistress.
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:48 PM   #23
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I will not support anything that pushes more people to a failure of a system like our public education system. D.C public schools in 2009 were spending just over $28,000 per student while Harvard was $32,000 per student. Columbia University just hired an adjunct professor who is a convicted killer and was part of a terrorist group (she was 38 years old... hardly a misguided youth at the time of being part of the murder).

That same Columbia University where a Professor stated "De Genova briefly rose to notoriety for a statement he made during a faculty teach-in on March 26, 2003, protesting the impending Iraq War. De Genova said that he hoped U.S. soldiers would experience "a million Mogadishus," a reference to the bloody losses U.S. troops suffered in the Battle of Mogadishu in 1993. He also stated that “U.S. patriotism is inseparable from imperial warfare and white supremacy" and that "The only true heroes are those who find ways to defeat the U.S. military."" Link

This push for further progressive ideology is purely a political play and a dream world. If you disagree with anything you are full of "hate". Progressive opinions become widely regarded as "fact" regardless of that being supported by actual facts or not. There idea of being rid of such things as "Bible thumping" has resulted in the same type of actions from those declaring an unproven theory as absolute fact... where if you don't have faith in that then you clearly are a fool according to many "progressives".

So this idea, to me, that we need to further take away the responsibility of the family and push it onto society as a whole is silly to me. We quite a bit of money into education and other social programs. Where is this Utopia? Why do government funded neighborhoods continue to largely be centers of crime, poverty and suffering.. continuing the cycle through generation after generation?

The idea that we must throw money at a problem (which is commonly called for with education) doesn't fix anything. That is of course ignoring the usual moaning and groaning from teachers ( Look at the Chicago teacher's Union strike where they wanted more money and not to be punished for poor performance... they weren't asking to improve their student's conditions just their own). Education and social programs from the government now teach individuals it is not their fault... it's because you're a minority, a woman, gay, etc. When I was in public schools it was very common for teachers to come in whining to students about how they didn't make enough money, etc (which is funny that I see people that I graduated who have now become teachers bitching about the same things... wtf did they think was going to happen?).

So to sum it up this push for more "community" involvement is really just wanting more brainwashing of people.
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Many cultures of the world marry girls off after their first menses, around 13 years old. I can't say that's inherently immoral, no.
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Old 04-07-2013, 03:23 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by VenomUSMC View Post
I will not support anything that pushes more people to a failure of a system like our public education system. D.C public schools in 2009 were spending just over $28,000 per student while Harvard was $32,000 per student. Columbia University just hired an adjunct professor who is a convicted killer and was part of a terrorist group (she was 38 years old... hardly a misguided youth at the time of being part of the murder).

That same Columbia University where a Professor stated "De Genova briefly rose to notoriety for a statement he made during a faculty teach-in on March 26, 2003, protesting the impending Iraq War. De Genova said that he hoped U.S. soldiers would experience "a million Mogadishus," a reference to the bloody losses U.S. troops suffered in the Battle of Mogadishu in 1993. He also stated that “U.S. patriotism is inseparable from imperial warfare and white supremacy" and that "The only true heroes are those who find ways to defeat the U.S. military."" Link
What does a private university have to do with the public school system. Also, while I disagree with what the professor in question's opinion, isn't it his right to have one? Isn't that what the US social system of individualism and self worth protect; a person's freedom of thoughts and speech?

In a broad sense I agree with Mellisa Harris. It is a community's responsibility to take care of itself, including it's children. Weather or not pubic education is the best example of this is certainly debatable, but I can tell you every time I meet adults who didn't make it through high school, my opinion of the public school system goes up.
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Old 04-07-2013, 03:57 PM   #25
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depriving them of the diversity and impressing upon them the importance of community. Besides, I've seen upholding liberty for corporate masters while crushing the little people so far is doing wonders for our prosperity.

Diversity is working wonders isn't it? Fucking amazing..


Im all about a village but not this bitches idea of a village .
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:28 PM   #26
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What does a private university have to do with the public school system.
They preach the same things. Universities public and private are known to foster anti-American ideologies.


Quote:
Also, while I disagree with what the professor in question's opinion, isn't it his right to have one? Isn't that what the US social system of individualism and self worth protect; a person's freedom of thoughts and speech?
Absolutely they have a right to their opinion. However a double standard clearly exists where if you are anti-American that is "free speech" in the field of education... if you are anti-anything that is championed by progressive's you are to be gotten rid of.



Quote:
In a broad sense I agree with Mellisa Harris. It is a community's responsibility to take care of itself, including it's children. Weather or not pubic education is the best example of this is certainly debatable, but I can tell you every time I meet adults who didn't make it through high school, my opinion of the public school system goes up.
What is a better example of what would come from the idea of the community taking the children in than what public education has become today? With the recent increasing calls to provide everyone with a college education on top of that while ignoring the massive cost of that education that is ever increasing despite the socialistic views pushed by these institutions.

This kind of idea reminds me of Michael Moore bitching about capitalism, etc while raking in millions of dollars.
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Many cultures of the world marry girls off after their first menses, around 13 years old. I can't say that's inherently immoral, no.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:43 PM   #27
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You should thank every adult who unselfishly rears responsible children to adulthood, because they are the only way your Medicare and Social Security will have a prayer of existing.
Are you fucking kidding me? Having kids is one of the most selfish things a person can do. Any benefit beyond the enjoyment of sex (oops, kids!) or passing on their genetic and family legacy is entirely unconnected to the actual child.

You're assuming:
1) Medicare and SSI will be around
2) I will be able to take advantage of it anyway (I won't)

I'd like to opt-out please, they don't do a thing for me except make my big macs and sometimes mow my yard in the summer. Oh yeah, and generate a 5 digit property tax bill for me every year. I got better things I could be doing with that money (like making sure I don't need SSI and Medicare when I get that age). And that's just an obvious one. I wonder how much the 9 of 10 social workers at DHHS that work specifically with kids cost.

EDIT: I'm not anti-child, but parents should be the SOLE providers for their children, in ALL aspects. That's the responsibility. As part of a community I say, keep an eye out and help them stay safe, but then get the fuck out of the parent's way.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:19 PM   #28
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As ONE tiny example: I pay plenty for lots of people's kids through income taxes and (especially) local property taxes that YEARLY go up to support schools hosting children that are yours and not mine.

You are getting far more material, financial, and societal support then you seem to think you are.
The taxes that I pay as well. Time and again I see tax money spent on programs that are focused on helping the bottom 20% of kids. While programs that help the top 20% of kids are under-funded or cut and require me to donate extra money. Your tax money is not helping my kids as much as you think it is. If think otherwise you should look into just how badly public schools are with funding programs. That doesn't even consider the charter schools everyone is in love with today. They are the mafia racket of the 21st century.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:24 PM   #29
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The taxes that I pay as well. Time and again I see tax money spent on programs that are focused on helping the bottom 20% of kids. While programs that help the top 20% of kids are under-funded or cut and require me to donate extra money. Your tax money is not helping my kids as much as you think it is. If think otherwise you should look into just how badly public schools are with funding programs. That doesn't even consider the charter schools everyone is in love with today. They are the mafia racket of the 21st century.
I'm not particularly sore and, if I think about it when I'm not thinking about my tax bill, I actually don't mind it too much. No need to punish the kids.

I am pretty offended by someone's suggestion that I owe you something just because you managed to procreate, though.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:30 PM   #30
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They preach the same things. Universities public and private are known to foster anti-American ideologies.
If your primary real world example of the pitfalls of public education are that a professor at a PRIVATE university has an opinion that you dislike, your argument has no backing. Furthermore, if someone lets you know that it's a PRIVATE university and that you really can't use that as evidence when making a case for the failure of public education and your response is that they do the same thing, then again, your argument has no backing. What is the solution to public education if those in private education "preach the same things". Also, broad paint brush you are using there to describe the ideologies of those in education.

here's an example:

We should get rid of the public military we have. Did you know that those in the Marine Corp are known to urinate on men, sexually assault women and otherwise engaged in "improper and indecent" conduct? True story, I found evidence on the internet. Also, they tried to cover it up. They foster that kind of ideology.

See how easy that is?


Regarding your other comments, I don't even know where to start. Conservatives have never tried to silence critics? Yeah, OK. And what I said about pubic education as an example was that I don't know if I would use pubic education as an example if I was making the case for community involvement in a child's life.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:59 PM   #31
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If your primary real world example of the pitfalls of public education are that a professor at a PRIVATE university has an opinion that you dislike, your argument has no backing. Furthermore, if someone lets you know that it's a PRIVATE university and that you really can't use that as evidence when making a case for the failure of public education and your response is that they do the same thing, then again, your argument has no backing. What is the solution to public education if those in private education "preach the same things". Also, broad paint brush you are using there to describe the ideologies of those in education.
If wish to read my previous post again you will see where I noted that comments like those made at a PRIVATE university are also heard at PUBLIC universities.

University of Cali spends 80,000 to promote socialism

Quote:
-The Madison Metropolitan Board of Education (in Wisconsin), headed by Calvin Williams, has passed a measure keeping students from saying the Pledge of Allegiance in class to keep other students’ personal and political beliefs from being “violated.” You can send comments to comments@madison.k12.wi.us.
- At San Diego State University, Zewdalem Kebede, a student, received a letter from the University’s Center for Students Rights warning him to abstain from verbally confronting members of the student body in an “abusive or aggressive” manner. His crime? He verbally confronted two Saudi students after overhearing them praise the attacks of Sept.11. Should Kebede choose to exercise his right to free speech again, he will face “severe disciplinary sanctions.”
- The superintendent of the Ohio Fairview Park schools recently banned a student from hanging up patriotic posters on his locker. According to a local paper, superintendent McDaniel felt the “signs were inappropriate and could offend Middle Eastern students.” Recent public pressure has since changed McDaniel’s mind.
- The SGA at UC Berkeley recently threatened the student paper of that school with higher rents after the paper printed an anti-terrorist cartoon. Oh, to be able to write for that student paper!
- Nadeen Al-jijakli, head of the Arab Students Union at NYU recently sent out a letter to the organization blaming the Sept. 11 attacks on America’s support of Israel. Her source was an article posted by David Duke, former head of the KKK. Her claim to ignorance is no excuse. His site is filled with anti-Semitic material that only a fellow Klan member could appreciate.
- Jennie Traschen (e-mail: lboo@physics.umass.edu), a professor at the University of Massachusetts, picked Sept. 10 of all days to say, "The [American] flag is a symbol of tyranny and fear and destruction and terrorism." Hmm, I don’t think bad timing gets any worse than that.
- The principal of an elementary school in Chapel Hill, N.C. is refusing to let the children start the day of with the Pledge of Allegiance, no doubt for fear of offending Martians or who knows what. This, of course, caused outrage from the community which is now standing outside the school every morning to recite the Pledge along with the National Anthem. Hopefully, the community will go a step further and boot this lopsided meathead for a principal.
Link


Quote:
We should get rid of the public military we have. Did you know that those in the Marine Corp are known to urinate on men, sexually assault women and otherwise engaged in "improper and indecent" conduct? True story, I found evidence on the internet. Also, they tried to cover it up. They foster that kind of ideology.

See how easy that is?
You are comparing the military to public education.... Also the Marine Corps punished those involved in the urination, is cranking down on sexual assaults and people caught engaging in "improper and indecent" conduct. Pushing the progressive agenda in education while dismissing other ideas is promoted within the education system, especially with "higher" education.


Quote:
Regarding your other comments, I don't even know where to start. Conservatives have never tried to silence critics? Yeah, OK. And what I said about pubic education as an example was that I don't know if I would use pubic education as an example if I was making the case for community involvement in a child's life.
Everyone has tried to silence critics which isn't right. However when one looks to the leftist push in this country the silencing of conservatives is widely accepted while doing so to a person of a progressive perspective is "hate".

What case are you making for the community's involvement in public education then if not public education which seems to be regarded as a minimum.

If a community wishes to be more involved with the children within it that is their prerogative. However based on the woman shown in the video's track record it seems very clear to me she intends for this to be government enforced intrusion into people's lives.
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Many cultures of the world marry girls off after their first menses, around 13 years old. I can't say that's inherently immoral, no.
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Old 04-07-2013, 06:08 PM   #32
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Are you fucking kidding me? Having kids is one of the most selfish things a person can do. Any benefit beyond the enjoyment of sex (oops, kids!) or passing on their genetic and family legacy is entirely unconnected to the actual child.

You're assuming:
1) Medicare and SSI will be around
2) I will be able to take advantage of it anyway (I won't)

I'd like to opt-out please, they don't do a thing for me except make my big macs and sometimes mow my yard in the summer. Oh yeah, and generate a 5 digit property tax bill for me every year. I got better things I could be doing with that money (like making sure I don't need SSI and Medicare when I get that age). And that's just an obvious one. I wonder how much the 9 of 10 social workers at DHHS that work specifically with kids cost.

EDIT: I'm not anti-child, but parents should be the SOLE providers for their children, in ALL aspects. That's the responsibility. As part of a community I say, keep an eye out and help them stay safe, but then get the fuck out of the parent's way.
Dude, get some fucking help.
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:21 PM   #33
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Having kids is one of the most selfish things a person can do.
You have a mental disorder. Also, I hope you get to reap the rewards of your opinion of today's children in the benefits they remove from your sorry old hide in your old age. After all, it was selfish of them to be around to do the paying for your to suck them dry as a retiree.

Quote:
I am pretty offended by someone's suggestion that I owe you something just because you managed to procreate, though.
I find your desire to leech of off society at both ends of life to be disgusting. It's bad enough that retirees do that in old age, but you want to burn the candle at both ends.

People like you are selfish, plain and simple. Without the children of today, your future would be a diaper, bedsores, and perhaps an early exit if you live in Oregon. It's a lie of selfish people such as yourself that kids are a drain on society. We spend more than double on the old in our society, and I'm going to assume you'd like to be around to be old one day. If you just look at federal spending, it's 7 to 1 for the elderly.

You're wrong on the facts and selfish. Also, if you don't like your damn property taxes, vote differently or move your lazy ass to a cheaper state. I pay three digits per YEAR and our schools do pretty well in terms of proficiency scores. Get out of your neighborhood/state and find a friendlier tax environment. And don't stick around for old age. You're going to be expensive, and my kids don't want to pay your way.
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:37 PM   #34
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He's a leech because he doesn't want to be forced to spend his money on other people, and he doesn't want other people to be forced to spend money on him... that makes a lot of sense.

According to your logic, no one should have to worry about saving for retirement, because the government is going to take care of them anyways. Oh wait, Obama is already trying to attack retirement funds, so you might be right! #BitcoinUserUnaffected
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:45 PM   #35
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If wish to read my previous post again you will see where I noted that comments like those made at a PRIVATE university are also heard at PUBLIC universities.
Then use those comments to prove your point, and not those from a private institution.


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Originally Posted by VenomUSMC View Post
You are comparing the military to public education.... Also the Marine Corps punished those involved in the urination, is cranking down on sexual assaults and people caught engaging in "improper and indecent" conduct. Pushing the progressive agenda in education while dismissing other ideas is promoted within the education system, especially with "higher" education.
Nope, I'm comparing your ability to take the actions of a few and apply them to an entire profession. Broad paintbrush. I established that as my point. Supplied an example. Commented on the ease it is to apply such incorrect logic.

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Everyone has tried to silence critics which isn't right. However when one looks to the leftist push in this country the silencing of conservatives is widely accepted while doing so to a person of a progressive perspective is "hate".
Here's the thing, I listen to between 3-6 hours of conservative talk radio a week while I commute to and from work. About 2 weeks ago I heard Beck make a statement to the effect that what should be done to "liberals" is that they should be publicly ridiculed for their ideas. Embarrass them so they won't want to speak in public. Is that what you are talking about?

The funny thing is, at this point and time more than ever, anyone can get their ideas broadcast to anywhere in the world thanks to the internet. The whole fight to silence the critics is an impossible task, and for all the talk that comes out, regardless of who is in power, that they have somehow stacked the deck in some way to keep group X down is kind of absurd. Think about the conversations 10 years ago while Bush was in office. The build up to the War in Afghanistan and Iraq, the way the media treated those who opposed it, and the career ending ridiculing the Dixie Chicks received. Yeah, poor conservatives, they get treated so badly by the liberal media.

The fastest way to stop the feeling that you are a victim is to stop looking for reasons that you are one.




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Originally Posted by VenomUSMC View Post
What case are you making for the community's involvement in public education then if not public education which seems to be regarded as a minimum.
Am I making the case for public education? Let me spell this out for you again:
"I don't know if I would use pubic education as an example if I was making the case for community involvement in a child's life."
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:09 PM   #36
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Come live a week at my house with my five children. After that just try and muster an argument that my wife and I are selfish, I fucking dare you.

The most selfish people I know are those unwilling to dedicate their lives to something greater than themselves.
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:00 PM   #37
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Here's the thing, I listen to between 3-6 hours of conservative talk radio a week while I commute to and from work.
Try to find this guy in your town. Most talk on both sides is retarded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNUc8nuo7HI
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:20 PM   #38
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You have a mental disorder.
Look at the judgmental prick who knows nothing about me except that I don't care to be held hostage to his decision to procreate. And then he says "You need help!" What a laugh!

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Also, I hope you get to reap the rewards of your opinion of today's children in the benefits they remove from your sorry old hide in your old age.
Fortunately, I was raised to take care of myself and not be a freeloader who expects other people to pick up the tab for their entirely optional decisions.

I've worked since I was a 10 and diligently saved to provide myself with a very comfortable retirement though I've taken some recent risks that I'm waiting to see if they pan out. I won't be eligible for hardly a good goddamn cent from SSI (despite paying enormous amounts into the system) and barely any Medicare coverage. Yet I've collectively seen nearly a million bucks sucked into infrastructure to support some people's crotchfruit thanks to property taxes.

I don't even want to start enumerating all the other places I've had to spend money because people who want to force me to pay for your decisions.

Protip: if you want kids, you pay for them lock, stock, and barrel. Maybe then we'd get some responsible parents who aren't looking for a goddamn handout they think society owes them because they wanted to fuck and pass on some genetic material.

When your kids are wiping my ass or mopping up my piss in the retirement home I'll think back on this and maybe send you a thank you. Or maybe I'll just do an old man fart into their face and chuckle.
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:23 PM   #39
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Come live a week at my house with my five children. After that just try and muster an argument that my wife and I are selfish, I fucking dare you.

The most selfish people I know are those unwilling to dedicate their lives to something greater than themselves.
You sound like the kind of person that has kids just so they can get the occasional day off work "ah, kid's sick, sorry can't come in." Or you live on a farm and need the extra labor.

No wonder you are an advocate of forcing people to pay out of their pocket to raise your kids. You know that if you were doing the right thing and being fully responsible for your optional decisions you'd never be able to afford to have 5 children (unless, again, they are more future farmhands and are more of an investment).

Talk about selfish.
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:26 PM   #40
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You sound like the kind of person that has kids just so they can get the occasional day off work "ah, kid's sick, sorry can't come in." Or you live on a farm and need the extra labor.

No wonder you are and advocate of forcing people to pay out of their pocket to raise your kids. You know that if you were doing the right thing and being fully responsible for your optional decisions you'd never be able to afford to have 5 children (unless, again, they are more future farmhands and are more of an investment).

Talk about selfish.
Brilliant troll.
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