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Old 12-14-2017, 03:48 PM   #701
vallor
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And Net Neutrality goes bye bye today. The left loses its collective shit.

I'm disappointed but maybe this will get the regional restrictions to finally come up for some real legislation when new ISPs can actually build their own infrastructure...

Only time will tell. I expect at least one, if not two lawsuits trying to reverse the decision. There was already a push by a bunch of Attorney Generals due to possible vote manipulation. I suspect that will be the first.
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Old 12-14-2017, 06:50 PM   #702
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Originally Posted by vallor View Post
And Net Neutrality goes bye bye today. The left loses its collective shit.

I'm disappointed but maybe this will get the regional restrictions to finally come up for some real legislation when new ISPs can actually build their own infrastructure...

Only time will tell. I expect at least one, if not two lawsuits trying to reverse the decision. There was already a push by a bunch of Attorney Generals due to possible vote manipulation. I suspect that will be the first.
I sincerely doubt the removal of NN will get the ball rolling on net infrastructure. I don't see the incentive for companies that are basically already monopolies to invest that much money for very little possible profit.
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:14 PM   #703
Terran
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OMG, NN is gone and my Internet is officially brok...
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Why would Republicans pass such a terrible tax law? lol...

Giving people more of their own money...WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS? :D
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Old 12-15-2017, 12:09 AM   #704
vallor
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Originally Posted by Phoenix1985 View Post
I sincerely doubt the removal of NN will get the ball rolling on net infrastructure. I don't see the incentive for companies that are basically already monopolies to invest that much money for very little possible profit.
No, but it does mean other companies can start bribing lobbying regional or local governments to allow them to start building their own competing infrastructure.

One of the reasons this hasn't happened before is because capacity could still be squeezed out of minor-ish (respectively) upgrades to existing infrastructure. Google Fiber in a few areas and separate experiments in, surprisingly, places like Chattanooga Tennessee show what has to be done to really revise infrastructure to drag places kicking and screaming to be up-to-date with the real world.

Maybe now without NN cities, counties, and states will be willing to partner with companies willing to go with that level of investment and allow them to run alongside the Comcasts of the world. Or more likely they'll let Comcast pay them more to keep their monopoly but that will cause all sorts of hell now that these companies will be open to litigation and different anti-trust laws.

I'm trying to find the bright side here. TBH I am not sure how this will turn out. The socialist in me is screaming "BAD FCC, BAD!" the libertarian in me is very interested and even excited to see how this turns out. Either way I don't think we'll see much change in the next 3-ish years. There would be a revolt and I wouldn't be surprised if "fast broadband for all/NN" didn't become a bullet point along with free education and health care on the human rights package of whoever the left runs in the next Presidential election.
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Old 12-15-2017, 03:24 AM   #705
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Originally Posted by Terran View Post
OMG, NN is gone and my Internet is officially brok...
I know this is a joke, but funnily enough a lot of people's nets broke for a bit almost at the same time after the change in rules. It was more or less unrelated far as I can tell (probably just a result of people posting a lot of image macros as the legislation changed). But it did make for some funny jokes as several people telling others to calm down as their nets weren't going to change had images that wouldn't load in their messages.
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Old 12-15-2017, 04:20 AM   #706
Terran
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I know this is a joke
NO IT ISN'T. I was being completely serio...
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Why would Republicans pass such a terrible tax law? lol...

Giving people more of their own money...WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS? :D
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Old 12-17-2017, 08:18 PM   #707
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Obumbles, in his rush to get a shitty deal with Iran so he could excuse sending planeloads of billions of dollars to Iran for...nothing...squelched law enforcement efforts targeting Hezbollah criminal enterprises.

Why am I not surprised at all? SMDH at that asshole and his shittastic foreign policy. Let ISIS grow and Syria fall to hell by doing nothing in Syria and pulling out of Iraq, sending millions of refugees streaming all over the West, then blow Libya to hell and let it fall apart, send illegal guns to Mexico and get Mexicans and Americans killed with those weapons, target conservatives with the IRS, sell uranium resources to Russia, and generally make a gigantic mess the world over.

Then engage the FBI in an attempted coup, as is happening right now. And Trump is the problem. Riiiiiiight.
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Why would Republicans pass such a terrible tax law? lol...

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Old 12-17-2017, 10:07 PM   #708
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Obama was very eloquent about it though. His enunciation and vocabulary and pandering to people of all sexes, creeds, gender preference (or none), sexual orientation, and so on meant people could always find something about him to ally with even if it was a momentary ally of convenience. It was a very good strategy which has shown to be effective for the last 25 years.

It's like how Feminists (and other minority movements like GLAAD and other LGBT "civil rights" teams), for right now, find a common ally with Islam (I won't bother to say "radical" as a qualifier because there is no version of Islam that isn't radical, unlike other mainstream faiths which have had an actual reformation movement). Both want to tear down the success of the Modern West.

Feminists and Co. get rid of the imagined oppressor of the White Male Patriarchy and Islamist get rid of their biggest threat by neutering the only people who could push them back to their barbaric land. It might almost be worth it to see how it plays out and Islam wins so we can see the footage of the new Imam forcing Gloria Steinem into a Burka and see people like Lena Dunham stoned for daring to talk back to a male in public.

Of course reps like Maxine Waters would be instantly removed from any position of power not only as a woman but as a woman of color (ironic considering how many African American Muslims are ignorant of how Islam has traditionally preached about how black people are inferior to Arab bloodlines).
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Old 12-20-2017, 05:39 AM   #709
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The Taxman cometh. Individual mandate is now removed! I hardly care whatever else was in the tax bill but removing the individual mandate, one of the two worst things about obamacare (the second being forced coverage for abortion even though they call it "birth control") is a huge victory IMO. Though, of course, the Dems are saying it's the end of the world to get rid of the mandate.

I don't believe the "it won't raise the deficit" bullshit one bit because you know the sunset agreements will never be allowed to sunset but hopefully bringing down the business tax rate to something near normal to the rest of the world will keep more work in the US.

Of course our crazy high wages (respectively, especially to Asia) and unions will still be a problem to deal with but... baby steps, right?
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Old 12-20-2017, 06:10 AM   #710
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Though, of course, the Dems are saying it's the end of the world to get rid of the mandate.
They keep talking about the millions of people who will lose insurance as a result, but the kicker is that those folks are going to lose insurance because they never wanted it in the first place and can't afford the thousands of dollars a month for a $20K-deductible plan that sucks donkey balls and which the Dems were forcing them to buy so that the Dems could suck money out of the poorest of us (singles, young folks) to give to folks with preexisting conditions.

The ACA was a gigantic lie. The worst legislation in a generation.
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Why would Republicans pass such a terrible tax law? lol...

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Old 12-20-2017, 06:37 AM   #711
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The Taxman cometh. Individual mandate is now removed! I hardly care whatever else was in the tax bill but removing the individual mandate, one of the two worst things about obamacare (the second being forced coverage for abortion even though they call it "birth control") is a huge victory IMO. Though, of course, the Dems are saying it's the end of the world to get rid of the mandate.

I don't believe the "it won't raise the deficit" bullshit one bit because you know the sunset agreements will never be allowed to sunset but hopefully bringing down the business tax rate to something near normal to the rest of the world will keep more work in the US.

Of course our crazy high wages (respectively, especially to Asia) and unions will still be a problem to deal with but... baby steps, right?
This is going to sound a bit preachy, but as someone who has visited several other countries in the world, spoken to their citizens about taxation and that has read up on tax law I can say the US is already below most other nations when it comes to taxing businesses. Neither are wages all that high (aside from a few specialist's wages, but that's normal for a number of countries).

As for unions, while the US history of unions has been a bit different than a lot of other places, they have not been the cause of the US losing work to a greater degree (at the very least in the last two decades). That's mainly down to automation (and the realization that work can be done most anyplace in the world if you're doing it via the net).

I'm also a bit confused as to why you think removing funding for birth control is a good thing. It would mean more abortions (back alley ones sure, but still) and a greater cost to society that eventually has to be picked up by the taxpayer anyway. It is a required expense to keep other expenses down.

But, yeah, as you said, the tax bill is going to raise the deficit something fierce. In all likelihood it is also going to be used as a justification to cut medicaid across the board to make up for the lost taxation. Now before anyone gets too happy about that, remember that medicaid is what large a number of Republican voters use and we're on the verge of a bundle of elections.
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Old 12-20-2017, 07:16 AM   #712
vallor
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This is going to sound a bit preachy, but as someone who has visited several other countries in the world, spoken to their citizens about taxation and that has read up on tax law I can say the US is already below most other nations when it comes to taxing businesses. Neither are wages all that high (aside from a few specialist's wages, but that's normal for a number of countries).
Business taxes world wide generally float around 18-19%. In the US they were around 35-ish% Obama, in a moment of sanity nearly dropped them to 30% at one time but that was quickly forgotten. So setting our business tax rate at 22-ish% is a very radical change and will hopefully, in combination with other trade changes, influence businesses to bring things back to the US.

Again, I say in general as there are obviously differences between different sizes of businesses, industries and so on.

Quote:
As for unions, while the US history of unions has been a bit different than a lot of other places, they have not been the cause of the US losing work to a greater degree (at the very least in the last two decades). That's mainly down to automation (and the realization that work can be done most anyplace in the world if you're doing it via the net).
I've had the "good fortune" to be a member of two different unions and in both of them I've seen how they twist the idea of working for the people into blackmailing the employer. Unions as they have evolved, at least since the 1990s when I had my first experience with them, are as poisonous and anti-business as any government regulation. If not more. All you have to do is point to how the UPS driver strike fucked over the company (and even caused American business to grind to a halt) to how the teachers unions keep everything from terrible teachers to pedophiles employed for years after they've been accused of crimes and to how Police Unions allow people like that Arizona cop who MURDERED the drunk a few years ago to get off scott-free. This doesn't even touch the corruption of the UFCW, the Teamsters, and... OMG I don't even know where to start and end. I would challenge anyone to show me an american union that does more good than bad for the country and its people.

Quote:
I'm also a bit confused as to why you think removing funding for birth control is a good thing.
Let me be more specific. FORCED funding. I am very much in favor of people being able to choose to opt out of funding activities which are diametrically opposed to their fundamental philosophy.

I would hope folks wouldn't ask Black Lives Matter to fund a KKK rally or a Jewish organization to send donations to Hamas so why ask for strict pro-life people to fund abortion?

Or maybe people might considering how much BDS is trendy these days. And certainly the opposite of forcing the KKK to fund BLM wouldn't be given a second thought, and would actually be cheered on despite the gross hypocrisy.

It is a moot point anyway. Access to abortion and birth control will be a prevalent next year as it was this year, if not more. Planned Parenthood and others already get hundreds of millions of dollars in private and government funding despite whatever was in Obamacare.
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Old 12-20-2017, 07:28 AM   #713
Terran
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I can say the US is already below most other nations when it comes to taxing businesses.
This is flat out incorrect as regards nations that actually count and compete in the global marketplace. Get your facts right. Nobody cares if we're below Somalia's corporate tax rate.

Quote:
they have not been the cause of the US losing work to a greater degree
This is flat out incorrect, as evidenced by the move of union auto manufacturing jobs to Mexico and right-to-work states. Get your facts right.

Quote:
I'm also a bit confused as to why you think removing funding for birth control is a good thing.
Birth control is extremely inexpensive.
Birth control is extremely controversial when used as progressives use it to include abortifacients.
Birth control funding shouldn't be imposed upon NUNS and others with religious/moral imperatives against it. Work for someone else or buy it yourself if you want it covered.

I'm also a bit confused as to why you progressives think that birth control should require, for most prophylactics, a prescription. OTC is where it belongs, but progressives are beholden to the special interests who want it expensive and out of women's own personal control. PATRIARCHY!

Quote:
But, yeah, as you said, the tax bill is going to raise the deficit something fierce.
Awww, how cute...a progressive with no problem while Obama DOUBLED our ENTIRE FEDERAL DEBT is worried about a trillion dollar potential deficit (and if we get growth from the bill, which we surely will, that will come down or disappear). How nice! How refreshing! How...hypocritical!
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Why would Republicans pass such a terrible tax law? lol...

Giving people more of their own money...WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS? :D
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Old 12-20-2017, 02:21 PM   #714
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From 2009: US Companies Pay the Highest Taxes in the World
Quote:
Corporate Tax Rates, US vs. Other Free-Market Democracies

Last year the Tax Foundation, a nonpartisan educational organization with a solid reputation for independence and credibility, released a report that compared the tax rates of US corporations (across all 50 states) with 29 other countries that accept the principles of representative democracy and free-market economy (referred to as OCED countries, 30 total). Their study reveals the surprising finding that US companies are already at a significant competitive disadvantage in the world economy.

When compared to other OECD countries:

24 US states have a corporate tax rate higher than top-ranked Japan.
32 states have a corporate tax rate higher than third-ranked Germany.
46 states have a corporate tax rate higher than fourth-ranked Canada.
All 50 states have a corporate tax rate higher than fifth-ranked France.
(The Tax Foundation, 2008)
The full chart comparing the various US tax rates versus all the other OCED countries is available here.

Based on gross domestic product (GDP) data from 2008, Japan was ranked as the world's second largest economy, Germany was the fourth largest, France was the fifth largest, and Canada was the eleventh largest economy. (CIA World Factbook on Wikipedia)

Among other surprises, all 50 US states have a combined corporate tax rate higher than even Italy, Spain, United Kingdom, Greece, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Austria, Switzerland, Denmark, Hungary, New Zealand, Australia, Mexico, Turkey, and South Korea. All 50 US states have higher tax rates than 27 of the other OCED countries.

When compared with companies based in Ireland with a 12.5% flat tax rate, US corporations that face an average 39.3% rate are taxed at 3.1 times Ireland's rate. When contrasted with Iceland (18%), Turkey (20%), Poland (20%), and Switzerland (21.3%) US companies pay roughly twice the tax rates of their foreign counterparts.

Even our cousins across the pond levy lower rates. The United Kingdom requires 30% in taxes while the US companies pay on average 39.3%; that's a 31% premium.
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Old 12-21-2017, 06:41 AM   #715
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Originally Posted by vallor View Post
Business taxes world wide generally float around 18-19%. In the US they were around 35-ish% Obama, in a moment of sanity nearly dropped them to 30% at one time but that was quickly forgotten. So setting our business tax rate at 22-ish% is a very radical change and will hopefully, in combination with other trade changes, influence businesses to bring things back to the US.

Again, I say in general as there are obviously differences between different sizes of businesses, industries and so on.



I've had the "good fortune" to be a member of two different unions and in both of them I've seen how they twist the idea of working for the people into blackmailing the employer. Unions as they have evolved, at least since the 1990s when I had my first experience with them, are as poisonous and anti-business as any government regulation. If not more. All you have to do is point to how the UPS driver strike fucked over the company (and even caused American business to grind to a halt) to how the teachers unions keep everything from terrible teachers to pedophiles employed for years after they've been accused of crimes and to how Police Unions allow people like that Arizona cop who MURDERED the drunk a few years ago to get off scott-free. This doesn't even touch the corruption of the UFCW, the Teamsters, and... OMG I don't even know where to start and end. I would challenge anyone to show me an american union that does more good than bad for the country and its people.



Let me be more specific. FORCED funding. I am very much in favor of people being able to choose to opt out of funding activities which are diametrically opposed to their fundamental philosophy.

I would hope folks wouldn't ask Black Lives Matter to fund a KKK rally or a Jewish organization to send donations to Hamas so why ask for strict pro-life people to fund abortion?

Or maybe people might considering how much BDS is trendy these days. And certainly the opposite of forcing the KKK to fund BLM wouldn't be given a second thought, and would actually be cheered on despite the gross hypocrisy.

It is a moot point anyway. Access to abortion and birth control will be a prevalent next year as it was this year, if not more. Planned Parenthood and others already get hundreds of millions of dollars in private and government funding despite whatever was in Obamacare.
The actual taxation is not really anywhere near 35 percent. https://www.cbpp.org/research/federa...able-countries

Comparing funding for birth control of any kind, which provably helps keep the population healthy and lowers costs of healthcare overall isn't comparable to funding a political movement.

Some people think Vaccines are scams or evil (moronic people, but still). Why would people listen to them when they want to remove vaccinations that are required to avoid outbreaks of sickness that harm the entire nation?
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Old 12-21-2017, 06:57 AM   #716
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I don't know what value it is to discuss tax rates that nobody pays. If the new system gets us closer to having a discussion about people actually paying the nominal rate as an effective rate, that seems like a step in the right direction.

This morning the news switched to a discussion of entitlement reform. And here, showing the bipartisan nature of hypocrisy, the democrats plan to oppose anything that could even approach fiscal responsibility because they think it looks unpopular in the mid terms. Again, they should really learn from Republicans. No amount of screwing over the people who voted for you will cause anyone to switch tribes.
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Old 12-21-2017, 06:58 AM   #717
Terran
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The actual taxation is not really anywhere near 35 percent. https://www.cbpp.org/research/federa...able-countries
Your 'non-partisan' group is a progressive shell. Proof is in their lie right here:

The tax bill hurts low and middle income Americans.

lulz. The tax bill cuts taxes for EIGHTY PERCENT of Americans, with only FIVE PERCENT of Americans seeing a rise in taxes...the folks with high incomes and expensive homes who can no longer write off the gobs of interest they spend on them yearly.

Lying liars and the lies they lie. The tax bill will be good for America, good for companies, and a positive for economic growth. Companies are already handing out wage increases and bonuses to regular workers (not executives) in response. SO TERRIBLE!
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Old 12-21-2017, 10:16 AM   #718
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Here is what the Progressive Change Campaign Committee sent out in their newsletter after the vote:

Emphasis mine.
Quote:
Every Democrat voted against this scam. Many people protested -- including students, grandparents, faith leaders, and people with disabilities. Polls showed disastrous unpopularity. Yet Republicans in Congress passed this anyway.

Families will be hurt. Frankly, some people will die. It's horrible.

So what can we do today?

One option is to take some quiet time and mourn. That's ok. A lot of people will do that.

Another option is to do something positive locally. Help a food shelter during the holidays. Read an extra book to a child in your life. Shovel a neighbor's driveway when it snows. All legit.
Now to some true spin and lies:

Again, emphasis mine.
Quote:
You probably never heard of Mimi Walters. She's one of the few Californian Republicans who voted for this tax bill despite the fact that the property tax provisions directly raise taxes on people in her state.

She represents a district affected by the California fires -- and even though some of her constituents lost their homes, she voted to stop them from being able to deduct the expense of rebuilding their lives. She is cruel.
There's nothing in the tax bill which will prevent people impacted by the wildfires from deducting proper rebuilding expenses. Any tax provisions of the bill which would apply to losses incurred this calendar year covering any value of rebuilding or writing off assets won't apply because Good ol' Moonbeam declared a state of emergency in the area.

This prevents standard tax application for property and asset write offs as well as any windfalls from insurance claims, just like for the hurricane impacted areas but you don't see that mentioned because PCCC knows they aren't going to make any headway in Florida or Texas.

Anyway, people are gunna die because cruel people like Mimi Walters

Through all of this they are, of course, asking for donations. Usually their every other day mailer they ask for $3 here and there for candidates or the cause of the day. But this time they asked for $9 to power a

This time it's their emphasis:
Quote:
a more angry and vengeful (while also hopeful) option, is to fuel the campaigns of Democrats who have the ability to kick these Republicans politicians OUT so we can undo this law and put new ones in place that actually help people.
Love when feelings win over facts.
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Old 12-21-2017, 10:29 AM   #719
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Where is your critique of all of the GOP bullshit involved in promoting this? Or Trump's campaign promises versus what is actually in this bill? Or the absolute crap that is in this bill that should have been stripped out? Forget feelings versus facts and just tackle your own hypocrisy for a while.
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Old 12-21-2017, 11:04 AM   #720
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The tax bill will be good for America, good for companies, and a positive for economic growth. Companies are already handing out wage increases and bonuses to regular workers (not executives) in response.
So, do you think that this tax bill will increase or decrease income inequality?

If it increases income inequality, do you think that is good for the majority of American workers?
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