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Old 12-02-2019, 08:26 AM   #121
SacredWeasel
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I know more about the lore than most. None of the info you gave me earlier was new to me. But there is a lot more to making a good story/cinematic than the knowledge about the lore. And it's not that being popular must mean its bad and shallow or being nerdy means it's good and deep. That's not a foregone conclusion. The things I posted are not mainstream in the same sense you suggest I'd want, yet they certainly are more interesting to people than the other stuff.
I never said these things. Let me put it another way: Can you name an example of an IP as niche as 40k were an effort was made to make it appeal to mainstream audiences and it worked out well for both original fans and the new intended audiences? Because I can't. It always goes horribly wrong. Video games movies, those godawful d&d movies, the Dune movie, the more recent Star Wars and Star Trek movies. It just always goes horribly wrong.

The favorite artist of the 40k community is John Blanche. Everything about his artwork is divisive and unappealing to mainstream audiences. Changing his artwork to make it appealing is certainly possible, but that would change it fundamentally and make it unappealing to it's original audience. The same is true for 40k. It is a fundamentally niche IP. That's fine, it doesn't need to be changed. Again, Games Workshop has been having some of the best years of it's 40+ year existence. The IP is doing just fine, it doesn't need an armchair general to fix it.

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In the end, we'll just run circles discussing this. We made our points and provided some sample material. Others can watch and decide what resonates more with them.
Eh, fair, I'll leave it at this, we really shouldn't have had this discussion in this thread in the first place.
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Old 12-02-2019, 08:45 AM   #122
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You kinda imply it all over the place. I never said a bunch of things you bring up either. You came very spring loaded into the conversation from the start, to be frank.

StarWars especially started out as a massive mainstream success. That's how it created the fundaments of the genre. It was never designed to be some niche stuff. And it was designed as a good cinematic experience for everyone before anything else. StarTrek as well back in the day always had an eye on popularity ratings. Dune was a remarkable success and influence. All of these things are not near as niche as you suggest. Even WH40k was hype back in the day. The problem is not that these IPs have become less niche, and that's why they are bad now. They never were niche. In the contrary, if anything, the interests behind them have become more niche now, and that's the problem. The things I posted have nothing to do with how StarWars/Trek developed. I don't know why you bring this in. I'm not even arguing it has to be changed. I have seen so much artwork in WH40k that is interesting to anyone, from fan to randoms. This either/or isn't the real issue. And regardless of how well you think they are doing, which of their current success is owed to what is another question, and probably has less to do with what you suggest. And I mean if sharing thoughts on the issue means being a pointless armchair general, we might as well discuss nothing at all on any issue on the net.

Last edited by RAV; 12-02-2019 at 09:02 AM..
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Old 12-02-2019, 09:46 AM   #123
SacredWeasel
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StarWars especially started out as a massive mainstream success. That's how it created the fundaments of the genre. It was never designed to be some niche stuff. And it was designed as a good cinematic experience for everyone before anything else. StarTrek as well back in the day always had an eye on popularity ratings. Dune was a remarkable success and influence. All of these things are not near as niche as you suggest.
Both Star Wars and Star Trek are example of IPs that were significantly damaged (in the eyes of fans) by changes made to them to appeal to broader audiences rather than focusing on the core audience that already loved them, something that you suggest needs to happen to 40k. Apparently I was wrong about Dune, I was under the impression that it didn't do well.

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Even WH40k was hype back in the day.
It really wasn't.

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And regardless of how well you think they are doing, which of their current success is owed to what is another question, and probably has less to do with what you suggest.
It has absolutely nothing to do with how I think they are doing and everything to do with how well they are doing. It is a simple fact that Games Workshop's performance over the past couple of years have been the best in their 40+ year existence. And I know exactly why. Simplified, because I don't feel like explaining the last decade in tabletop gaming: The company was doing badly under its previous management, making all kinds of mistakes and repeatedly pissing off their core fans and sending them to other table top games. A new CEO came in and reversed course, focusing on their core fans, giving them an endless stream of the exact things they've been asking for. The turn around is absolutely remarkable. Games Workshop doubled revenue and tripled profits in a years time.

Here go read up on the company that you're trying to discuss. They are doing absolutely phenomenal

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And I mean if sharing thoughts on the issue means being a pointless armchair general, we might as well discuss nothing at all on any issue on the net.
No, you're an armchair general because you're trying to discuss something that you know very little about.
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Old 12-02-2019, 10:08 AM   #124
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Both Star Wars and Star Trek are example of IPs that were significantly damaged (in the eyes of fans) by changes made to them to appeal to broader audiences rather than focusing on the core audience that already loved them, something that you suggest needs to happen to 40k. Apparently I was wrong about Dune, I was under the impression that it didn't do well.
You try to avoid the issue that they were massive mainstream success from the start, specifically designed to be popular, which was the foundation of their lore. And with StarTrek especially, many changes being made to improve ratings, actually improved the quality of the show as well. What exactly made today's iterations worse is up for discussion. I don't think it was precisely the attempt to make it mainstream, as it was sheer incompetence, and interests that were exactly not majority interest, nor respecting lore. The changes being made were in interest of no one. Basically it was good at nothing.


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It really wasn't.
Yes it was. I remember well how it was. It may depend on how exactly you define it, with "true fans" and actual players, just as you have your own definition of popularity. But thematically it was well known around the time.

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It has absolutely nothing to do with how I think they are doing and everything to do with how well they are doing. It is a simple fact that Games Workshop's performance over the past couple of years have been the best in their 40+ year existence. And I know exactly why. Simplified, because I don't feel like explaining the last decade in tabletop gaming: The company was doing badly under its previous management, making all kinds of mistakes and repeatedly pissing off their core fans and sending them to other table top games. A new CEO came in and reversed course, focusing on their core fans, giving them an endless stream of the exact things they've been asking for. The turn around is absolutely remarkable. Games Workshop doubled revenue and tripled profits in a years time.
Again you avoid the issue that what makes their success is not as clean cut as you suggest, and not everything in their portfolio is successful the same. It also has a lot to do with IP licensing and projects of popularity you apparently don't approve that much. It's not that I hate everything that is currently going on, nor is it that you love everything that is currently going on. It isn't even about you and me. It is about projects that are going regardless you or me. Just what we like about it or not. I showed you things I liked, and you what you liked. There are different things we'd like to see more of. And that's it.


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No, you're an armchair general because you're trying to discuss something that you know very little about.
Yes, yes, of course.
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Old 12-02-2019, 10:21 AM   #125
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and not everything in their portfolio is successful the same.
Everything that games workshop has done since 2015 has done incredibly well. The return of bloodbowl and necromunda, the release of 8th edition 40k and 2nd edition Age of Sigmar, warbands, titanicus, underworlds, the reboot of lotr. All done very well. Their newest game, aeronautica is somewhat up in the air still and from what I've seen hasn't been doing as well as the rest. You're confusing what Games Workshop does with what it licenses out, because you know, you have no idea what you're talking about.

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It also has a lot to do with IP licensing and projects of popularity you apparently don't approve that much.
GW has been licensing their IP for a lot longer than their recent success. It has nothing to do with it. What projects of popularity are you referring to? What exactly has GW done recently that I apparently don't approve of?


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Yes, yes, of course.
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This franchise could be so much more, but they develop on all the wrong fronts. Their growth potential is well below what it could be.
Just one of many examples to prove you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Again Games Workshop doubled revenue and tripled profits in a years time. You dumbass.
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Old 12-02-2019, 10:32 AM   #126
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But we are talking about what makes their success. Licensing projects are part of it, and there have never been bigger ones than today, it significantly increased their outreach, interest and income with these high profile projects, not all of which you apparently like. It's not this vacuum between all their activities. There are synergies. It is also still a question what exactly about their nature worked to their favour. Also we were talking specifically about the prospect of movies. And the by far most successful cinematic projects are those that apparently are not your dearest, and not even made by GW. Or in other words, if they were to invest big time into a movie to the tenets you suggested, it probably would be an epic failure that may even sink them, so probably good they don't. Guess they should keep things small then. I think the reason you are getting more aggressive and unhinged is that you discovered you talked yourself into an awkward corner with all that popularity comparisons. Because you don't know nearly as much as you'd like to pretend.
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Old 12-02-2019, 10:46 AM   #127
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But we are talking about what makes their success. Licensing projects are part of it, and there have never been bigger ones than today, it significantly increased their outreach and income with these high profile projects, not all of which your apparently like.
No, we are talk about their recent spectacular rise to success. The only big license they've done recently was Total War, which happened after the rise started. Which don't I apparently like? I'm rather interested now in learning all this new stuff about myself you keep hinting at, but not fully revealing.

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And the by far most successful cinematic projects are those that apparently are not your dearest, and not even made by GW
I absolutely adore Astartes you dumbass. The Lord Inquisitor is incredibly atmospheric. I like both of them very much. I think certain aspects of the second were badly done.

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I think the reason you are getting more aggressive and unhinged is that you discovered you talked yourself into an awkward corner with all that popularity comparisons. Because you don't know nearly as much as you'd like to pretend.
Not really, you just completely missed my point why I was comparing certain properties to 40k. Unlike you I can actually admit when I'm wrong about something. Besides, aggressive and unhinged describes like 75% of my posts on this site. That's nothing new. Hell even in this discussion that describes everything except my first one.
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Old 12-02-2019, 11:03 AM   #128
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No, we are talk about their recent spectacular rise to success. The only big license they've done recently was Total War, which happened after the rise started. Which don't I apparently like? I'm rather interested now in learning all this new stuff about myself you keep hinting at, but not fully revealing.
Lol really? They've done so many big games for while... Do I really have to list it all? And what qualities exactly give them success over other things, is still up in the air as far as I am concerned, as well as how things will go moving forward. I really don't care anymore at this point what you like. But yes, you revealed it yourself by calling out DoW3 and what you dislike in general. I don't necessarily disagree on all that, but our discussion has become so hostile there is no point in dragging on.

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I absolutely adore Astartes you dumbass. The Lord Inquisitor is incredibly atmospheric. I like both of them very much. I think certain aspects of the second were badly done.
Haha dude, but that's the point. I was posting these things as a showcase where I like things going, where I see more potential for success, that it also contributes to their success, and how it's different to what you posted, and why I see not much future success in that. it wasn't so much about the now or the past, I was never even challenging that, you made that up to have a talking point. It blew all up from there, calling me out how I want to ruin WH40k with mainstream shit. So what now.

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Unlike you I can actually admit when I'm wrong about something. Besides, aggressive and unhinged describes like 75% of my posts on this site. That's nothing new. Hell even in this discussion that describes everything except my first one.
Nah, this one has been especially bad for you. So where we go from here, keep derailing this thread with throwing names? There is no more value here, because really, it has all been said at this point.
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Old 12-02-2019, 11:18 AM   #129
SacredWeasel
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I was posting these things as a showcase where I like things going, where I see more potential for success, that it also contributes to their success, and how it's different to what you posted, and why I see not much future success in that.
Yeah, and as I have repeatedly pointed out, you have no idea about Games Workshop. How it operates, just how well it has been doing the last couple of years, and what actually defines success in their case. Hence why your opinion is so irrelevant, because you just have no idea what you're talking about. You're just giving your opinion on what appeals to you more. To use the Star Wars comparison one last time, you're like someone saying they like the newest movies best because the special effects are great, but that has nothing to do with why Empire is generally considered the best in the series.

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Nah, this one has been especially bad for you.
Meh, I enjoyed it. Not my most fun stint on this site, but not bad either. But yeah fair enough let's end it for now. I'm sure I'll come back to you sometime. Not as fun as arguing with Spectral or Terran or some of the other older posters, but not bad certainly.
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Old 12-02-2019, 11:49 AM   #130
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But how well they have been doing up to now was never a point of contention anyway. It's amusing how hung up you got on that. Even I like most of what they've been doing. I just don't like what you showcased for them to go forward. I like the specific things I posted from past projects much more. I also think you downplay too much other aspects. And no, your Starwars comparison is again completely off. It's the overall package of screenplay. I guess somehow we felt the need to lay out our views on this, but I don't really enjoy this type of convo, because I'm more creatively inclined.
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Old 12-02-2019, 11:55 AM   #131
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Old 12-02-2019, 02:21 PM   #132
SacredWeasel
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But how well they have been doing up to now was never a point of contention anyway.
Yes it was, you can't even keep a few posts straight, I mentioned it in my first reply to you when you claimed the franchise was going to die from becoming "woke", and in your second reply you claimed their growth potential was well below what it could be, despite, yet again, GW having some of the best years on record recently.

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Even I like most of what they've been doing.
I seriously doubt that. I don't think you have any idea what they've been doing, like that list of releases I posted earlier, did you know what any of those were? GW has little to nothing to do with making video games. They will license out their IP to just about anyone who wants to make them. They provide some very minor support on what the devs can do lorewise, and that's it, that's the end of their involvement with making video games. GW makes models, publishes books, and licenses their IP. The vast majority of their profit comes from the first two. For the six months ending in december 2018 their profit was a little over 40 million, 5 of which came from licensing royalties. Their revenue from sales was 125 million. Do you need help with the math here? The business is built around selling models and books. Licensing is just an easy way to make some extra cash, because it doesn't cost them anything, because that's where their involvement ends. Is licensing a major part of Ferrari's business model because their cars show up in various games?

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I just don't like what you showcased for them to go forward.
There's nothing wrong with that. There is something wrong with pretending that if only they would listen to you and do everything to appeal to you that then they would be doing much better, especially when they have been doing absolutely phenomenally lately. Like you did for instance here and in other posts:

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We also seem to have different definitions of what success means. This franchise could be so much more, but they develop on all the wrong fronts. Their growth potential is well below what it could be.
You seem to think I have a problem with your opinions, I don't, I just find it intensely annoying how you try and portray your opinions as solid facts, especially when it's about a company that you know nothing about.
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Old 12-02-2019, 02:54 PM   #133
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No, I actually liked them more for the lore and artwork stuff than anything. I hardly played any of the licensed computer games, but they definitely are an important part of advertisement for their franchise, that has positive effects on everything else. Why else do you think they bother with that anyway? I do also like some of the cinematics and tributes done by the community or the licensed devs. I am wholly unconvinced about the case you've been trying to make on cinematics. It just didn't look good. The problem isn't actually that it's not shiny enough. The characters and conversations are not interesting, and it's altogether too dry and flat.

Yes, there are actually several aspects to success. Like their table top line up could do well, or their licensing may not. Maybe their thematic popularity could improve or not, or their cinematic efforts may be a failure in the future for whatever reason. And then there is the question whether you are satisfied by the level of success or not. I don't care if you are and if it's their best. The cinematics you suggested are well below what I expect.

You are way to presumptous on what I supposedly know or don't, and have been trying to pigeon hole and entangle me ever since. You are so focused on trying to frame me how I want to control them with my opinion, or how I state every opinion as last fact, it's just silly at this point. Maybe this is just some try-hard opportunity for you to bust another bigot. But yes, I'm not entirely factless either way. The cinematics I posted are much more popular than the cinematics you posted. After which we started arguing if it would ruin WH40k to be in greater interest. What I posted wouldn't.
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Old 12-02-2019, 03:08 PM   #134
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There are also fan projects to porting Nintendo games to Unreal Engine 4.

Some dude made Mario on UE4.


Some other dude made Zelda in it.


Why are these dudes make stuff that looks so good. Only god knows.
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Old 12-02-2019, 03:34 PM   #135
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No, I actually liked them more for the lore and artwork stuff than anything. I hardly played any of the licensed computer games, but they definitely are an important part of advertisement for their franchise, that has positive effects on everything else. Why else do you think they bother with that anyway? I do also like some of the cinematics and tributes done by the community or the licensed devs. I am wholly unconvinced about the case you've been trying to make on cinematics. It just didn't look good. The problem isn't actually that it's not shiny enough. The characters and conversations are not interesting, and it's altogether too dry and flat.
Irrelevant opinion. You literally say you like just about nothing about 40k, and yet you somehow think your opinion is at all relevant to the future of it? Why in godsname would you think that?

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Yes, there are actually several aspects to success. Like their table top line up could do well, or their licensing may not.
The difference is if their table top line fails they're out of business, where as the licensing part is very small and largely irrelevant. You also seem to think that I object to them licensing things? I really don't, and haven't said anything to the contrary. It brings in easy money and as you say it works as advertising. Hell, thanks to the success of Total War: Warhammer, they've decided to relaunch Warhammer:fantasy after killing it just a couple of years ago. Them licensing things is absolutely a good thing and I never claimed otherwise.

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The cinematics you suggested are well below what I expect.
Irrelevant opinion. See above.

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You are way to presumptous on what I supposedly know or don't, and have been trying to pigeon hole and entangle me ever since.
You have done nothing to convince me otherwise. You have repeatedly shown yourself to be ignorant of the facts about Games Workshop. You have repeatedly tried to push your opinions as fact. I'm not trying to pigeon hole or entangle you, you have done so yourself.

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Maybe this is just some try-hard opportunity for you to bust another bigot.
Wut? If I wanted to do that I would just call you a bigot? I'm not shy about calling that kind of thing out. Are you a bigot? I'd hate to think I've wasted my time with all of this 40k stuff when I could have been berating you about whatever horrible opinion you hold that makes you scared of being called a bigot.

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But yes, I'm not entirely factless either way.
No, just mostly.

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The cinematics I posted are much more popular than the cinematics you posted.
Sure, but then again, so is this:



Are you now going to suggest that GW use that video to guide them in the future?

The point of the comparison of other franchises to 40k was to specifically point out that popularity isn't the same as being good. The newer Star Wars movies made significantly more money than the older ones, and yet are worse in just about every way. I don't want to see that happen to 40k, which is why I get annoyed when people suggest stupid bullcrap, despite knowing little to nothing about it.

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What I posted wouldn't.
If by "what" you mean the videos, no, they wouldn't, certainly not by themselves, if taken as a guiding goal for the entire franchise, then yes, hell you yourself said that focusing too much on marines shooting baddies would be a bad thing, but that's all that Astartes is. Otherwise if by "what" you mean the opinions you kept spouting off about as fact, then yes.
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Old 12-02-2019, 03:41 PM   #136
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This is just pointless and kills the thread. I end it here and you can have your last word by all means.
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Old 12-02-2019, 03:49 PM   #137
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I liked the show Peaky Blinders.

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Old 12-02-2019, 03:55 PM   #138
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And I am looking forward to watching The Irishman.
It's one movie clocking in at over 3 hours. I expect it to be worth every minute. Please.

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Old 12-02-2019, 04:00 PM   #139
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God, I love Tailspin, still.

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Old 12-03-2019, 02:19 AM   #140
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As an aside Games Workshop has been popular for decades. I remember it from when I lived in the UK long ago and there were shops that did nothing but deal in lead figures and Games Workshop produced many of them for Citadel. In the UK back then minatures was way more popular than in the US (and anywhere else in Europe I went).

The audience may be nitche in the US and other industrialized nations that had better electronics and TV. After all, in the UK we got all of 3 channels and cable TV hadn't made it over the Atlantic yet so we had to do SOMETHING with our time.

It was at least as popular as pen and paper role playing games (which was pretty big in the UK) then. In fact I remember having to buy new sets of miniatures a lot as we cycled through systems. I think I may still have some ElfQuest and Traveler figures around.
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