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Old 03-16-2018, 05:17 PM   #301
vallor
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BTW.

With the exception of a few moments of snark and a little insulting back and forth this has been a much less inflammatory thread than I think a lot of people expected.

We'll probably have to all agree to disagree on the idea that Americans should have firearms at all. Some will say no, others will say 2nd amendment. I think the government would be out to push it's boundaries, some think they'd keep themselves in check.

But overall we've been mostly pretty civil.

Thanks everyone. I think we may be doing a better job here in the ToT forum talking about it than they are in Congress.
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Old 03-16-2018, 05:40 PM   #302
Terran
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I think we may be doing a better job here in the ToT forum talking about it than they are in Congress.
Self-congratulatory nonsense, vallor. There are no stakes in this silly little forum. The stakes in Congress are immense.

If you wouldn't fight aggressively to protect the Second Amendment in Congress you'd make a great Democrat fighting to destroy it. There's not much else available to you. Defend it or cede ground.
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Old 03-17-2018, 02:17 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Terran View Post
Self-congratulatory nonsense, vallor. There are no stakes in this silly little forum. The stakes in Congress are immense.

If you wouldn't fight aggressively to protect the Second Amendment in Congress you'd make a great Democrat fighting to destroy it. There's not much else available to you. Defend it or cede ground.
Pfft, no one gets anywhere when people aren't willing to talk about an obvious issue. Kids getting killed in schools is a pretty obvious issue and to deny it would be just as obstructionist as those who play the "we gotta take all the guns!" game.

I'm pretty sure if smart, calm, rational people can discuss a problem they'll come to a solution which doesn't include infringement.

Solutions include centralizing serial numbers of gun purchases with non-indexable name fields, skill based licensing, possible technical solutions for firearms, reduction or elimination of gun free zones, reciprocal concealed carry, of course the obvious approach of actually fully enforcing the laws and remedies we have available.

All of these can help lessen the problem without defeating or causing friction on the 2nd Amendment and some of them even retract existing restrictions.
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Old 03-17-2018, 06:05 AM   #304
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Pfft, no one gets anywhere when people aren't willing to talk about an obvious issue.
Except that where progressives want to "get" is the abolition of the Second Amendment.

Quote:
Kids getting killed in schools is a pretty obvious issue
Absolutely. So talk about THAT and about what actually LED TO IT.
* Failure of the school to take the kid's problems seriously.
* Failure of his therapists to report his dangerous repeated fantasies of violence.
* Failure of the local police to take the kid's problems seriously.
* Failure of the FBI to take the kid's problems seriously.
* Failure of the federal government under Obama in pushing the downplaying of violent criminal behavior in schools because...racism!

You know what doesn't matter at all, absent the magical ability to remove every single weapon in the country? The gun(s) he used. GUN CONTROL is NOT THE ISSUE.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure if smart, calm, rational people can discuss a problem they'll come to a solution which doesn't include infringement.
This just makes you naive and/or stupid.

Quote:
Solutions include centralizing serial numbers of gun purchases with non-indexable name fields
Nope. Won't stop criminals.

Quote:
skill based licensing
Nope. Won't stop criminals.

Quote:
possible technical solutions for firearms
Nope. Won't stop criminals.

Quote:
reduction or elimination of gun free zones
Nope. Would work, progressives won't allow it on a widespread basis.

Quote:
reciprocal concealed carry
Nope. Would work, progressives won't allow it on a widespread basis.

Quote:
of course the obvious approach of actually fully enforcing the laws and remedies we have available.
Nope. Progressives don't want this short of total gun confiscation.

Quote:
All of these can help lessen the problem without defeating or causing friction on the 2nd Amendment and some of them even retract existing restrictions.
You think a database and technical solutions (I assume such as guns matched to individual users or they don't fire) DON'T infringe on the Second Amendment? OMG, that's...that's...



You go ahead and continue your meaningless little peace rally, lol. The real action is in the legislative halls around the country, and in those it's not all kumbaya hand-holding, it's a zero-sum battle against gun grabbing asswipe progressives who are USING DEAD KIDS (and loudmouth lying living ones) to further their agenda to kill the Second Amendment.
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Old 03-17-2018, 06:13 AM   #305
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Only a heartless progressive would think that caring about actual dead babies is a political ploy. Then again, the entire Democrat Party is pretty damned heartless, considering the percentage who voted against any medical intervention if a baby survives abortion and lies there suffering in agony, dying slowly, completely outside of the womb.

Hey, if it works for you, go for it.



Find that safe space!!!!

Are you being ironic or just fucking retarded.

You are the one bringing in the whole "think of the children" bullshit, while saying that others are using that fallacy.

Also you are equating aborted fetus' to murder? You're a fucking moron.

Abortion is a women's right issue. If you want to make abortion illegal to appease your faggot sky god, then you live in saudi arabia with the rest of your like minded fuck constituency.

Gun control is a separate issue. You want to link the two.. fucking fine. Its your own retarded rhetoric and I don't give a flying fuck.. but fuck your hypocrisy, you're using the same bullshit tactic as they are.. and pretending you are not.

No one is that stupid. But feel free to prove me wrong.

Lastly, I hope you all get all the fucking guns you want.. get some nukes and drones while you are at it.. and kill yourselves off you idiotic cunts.

And fuck the unborn babies too.
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Old 03-17-2018, 06:18 AM   #306
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Also.. that act passed. People disagreed, but majority rule won. Thats called democracy. But feel free to take a victory and use it to play the victim card, the democrats eat babies rhetoric.

You fuck. You're just as bad as the SJWs and the morons with the safe spaces.
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Old 03-17-2018, 07:08 AM   #307
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Abortion is a women's right issue.
Damn right. You're aborting women (sex selective abortion, a global problem) as well as minorities (OMG, they're a global majority!).

LOL@you for claiming to care about women or minorities as you kill them.
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Old 03-17-2018, 11:02 AM   #308
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The progressive elite have no issue with guns, they just don't want the pesants having them
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Old 03-17-2018, 11:51 AM   #309
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Abortion is a women's right issue. If you want to make abortion illegal to appease your faggot sky god, then you live in saudi arabia with the rest of your like minded fuck constituency.
There's always some chest thumping white knight moron that comes into these threads about 3/4 of the way through and thinks he's got it all won.
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Old 03-17-2018, 03:24 PM   #310
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There's always some chest thumping white knight moron that comes into these threads about 3/4 of the way through and thinks he's got it all won.
Compares being against abortion to that of Islam which treats their women as sub human. You simply can't make up the leaps in logic when it comes to progressives, like I keep saying, they simply make it up as they go along since facts, history and common sense all go against their ideology.
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Old 03-19-2018, 04:44 AM   #311
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Old 03-19-2018, 10:49 PM   #312
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Old 03-19-2018, 10:50 PM   #313
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For those in the Derek Zoolander school of kids who don't read well and stuff:

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Old 03-20-2018, 05:41 AM   #314
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Old 03-20-2018, 05:27 PM   #315
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Maryland, with some of the toughest gun laws in the nation: How did a kid get a weapon in Maryland?

Gosh, I thought progressives made it clear all we needed were strict gun laws like Maryland's and we'd stop this stuff! And having a good guy with a gun willing to engage a shooter certainly seems like a terrible idea to progressives, so how could it be anything other than stupid, right?

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Old 03-26-2018, 08:00 AM   #316
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Well, the NRA seems to be pretty much fucked at this point, and yes, the rights in the constitution were never intended as a death pact. Clearly the founders never enunciated a right to school safety because they did not anticipate that a right meant to provide security would be perverted to become a source of domestic terror.

In any case, a few less reactive posts back, Vallor made the comment that-
Quote:
Originally Posted by vallor View Post

I'm pretty sure if smart, calm, rational people can discuss a problem they'll come to a solution which doesn't include infringement.
I had wanted to reply at the time, but I'll go retrograde for a minute to address this. The supreme court clearly stated that even if the right to own weapons in the 2nd amendment is extended to cover personal protection, it is not an unlimited right and that limiting types of weapons and circumstances for carrying them was constitutional. BTW, I am not saying that this means that they were calm or rational, or intelligent. Likewise for my next point. The NRA has stated that ANY gun control is an infringement. So, by your own constraints, the entire view of the NRA has to be excluded from this discussion if the goal is to reach a consensus on gun control that is not considered infringement by anyone. Even if they were smart, calm, and rational, you can't reconcile the gun control/ infringement issues. If the population were to switch towards a smart, calm, rational approach to gun control that honors the 2nd amendment, I think the NRA would want to be at that table, but they are choosing to expel themselves.

Next point, the NRA only has one big weapon in its war chest. Which candidate will they support with money and ads. If they don't like a candidate, they can threaten to withhold donations, or more seriously, they can threaten to back a challenger in a primary. However, neither of these strategies work if the tide swings towards gun control, which could happen, hypothetically. Both the backed incumbent and the backed challenger will both eat shit, rendering the NRA impotent. The NRA only works if they have a significant number of politicians on their payroll in office. It really doesn't matter how much they spend on people who lose elections. The current gun control wave is orders of magnitude larger than the fraudulent tea party wave, and that wave cleaned house.

Next point, in the greatest public outcry on gun control in my lifetime, the one position that didn't show up was "go door to door and forcefully disarm the populace using the full military might of the government." If all you have to motivate people are scare tactics about the US becoming Venezuela next Thursday and going door to door to take guns, well, those pie in the sky phobias don't balance well against a parent who has actually lost a kid, or against somebody actually wounded at school, or against classmates traumatized. If all the gun lobby can argue to prevent any and all gun control is that they are scared of stuff that might possibly, in a million years could happen and that is why you can't address what is actually happening, then gun lobby loses. You can't bring a phobia to gunfight and expect to not get your ass kicked. or shot. In this case, actual trumps maybe.

Stats. At this point, both sides are loading up pundits with stats about what works, what doesn't work, what might work here, etc. To the extent that the gun lobby sticks with stats that seem irrelevant or disconnected and refuses to engage stats that are more realistic, they seem like liars. (Same for the left) But, this is largely an emotional issue, and if the public is hungry for something to be done, then the one argument that is guaranteed to lose is that we should continue to do nothing, or that dong nothing is working great. The sooner the gun lobby realizes that, the better chance they have of staying in business.

Last point for now, gun ownership is like cigarette smoking. The cigarette industry had plenty of evidence that cigarettes killed their customers, and caused expensive medical conditions. The only way they could stay in business was to try to recruit new customers to replace the older ones who were sick and dying, while trying to hide this fact from the younger customers they weer trying to appeal to. Well, gun ownership and NRA membership are both also declining, even hunting as a past time has declined. The hope was to recruit from the younger generation to refill the customer base. But their treat kids like shit and hope they rot in hell attitude has just galvanized a generation against them, cutting them off as a future member source and funding source as well as stripping them of political power. They completely fucked themselves on this. There is no actual data on how the 2nd amendment has secured a free state, but we have plenty on gun violence. Even when we rationally admit that the likelihood of getting murdered by a gun or being a victim of a mass shooting is astonishingly low, the reality is that there is no equally easy societal protection from this. That is what people are responding to. It isn't that we are all about to be shot any second now. It is the imbalance that the current laws create in giving one person the means to easily deprive 50 or more people of their civil rights in a few minutes.

So, smart, rational, calm gun control will probably involve limiting types of guns, more responsibility for gun owners, sellers, and manufacturers, better training and registration, better background checks, close all gun acquisition loopholes, increase scientific study of gun safety and gun violence. Almost all of these will be considered infringement by some, but when the public cries on tv that their civil rights are being infringed, the courts must try to find a balance, and this one has tipped.
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What I think is immaterial

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Old 03-26-2018, 02:15 PM   #317
Terran
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Last point for now, gun ownership is like cigarette smoking.
So are cars. So is this substance! Progressives are morons.

Quote:
Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
Contributes to soil erosion.
Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
Contamination of electrical systems often causes short-circuits.
Exposure decreases effectiveness of automobile brakes.
Found in biopsies of pre-cancerous tumors and lesions.
Given to vicious dogs involved in recent deadly attacks.
Often associated with killer cyclones in the U.S. Midwest and elsewhere, and in hurricanes including deadly storms in Florida, New Orleans and other areas of the southeastern U.S.
Thermal variations in DHMO are a suspected contributor to the El Nino weather effect.
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Old 03-26-2018, 04:39 PM   #318
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Well, the NRA seems to be pretty much fucked at this point, and yes, the rights in the constitution were never intended as a death pact.
Time: Membership in Gun Groups Is Spiking After the Florida Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whimbrel View Post
Clearly the founders never enunciated a right to school safety because they did not anticipate that a right meant to provide security would be perverted to become a source of domestic terror.
The founders likely understood you can't actually legislate safety. If you could, the layers and layers of laws broken before the first shot rang out in the school never would have happened. Furthermore, research already provided to you showed that murder rates were much higher back -- with the murder rate being estimated as being over 30 per 100,000 in the time of the founders. Still, I guess you can pretend that horrid acts of violence were somehow unknown to the founders.

Actually, do you have the faintest clue about early U.S. history and violence?

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Originally Posted by Whimbrel View Post
I had wanted to reply at the time, but I'll go retrograde for a minute to address this. The supreme court clearly stated that even if the right to own weapons in the 2nd amendment is extended to cover personal protection, it is not an unlimited right and that limiting types of weapons and circumstances for carrying them was constitutional. BTW, I am not saying that this means that they were calm or rational, or intelligent. Likewise for my next point. The NRA has stated that ANY gun control is an infringement. So, by your own constraints, the entire view of the NRA has to be excluded from this discussion if the goal is to reach a consensus on gun control that is not considered infringement by anyone. Even if they were smart, calm, and rational, you can't reconcile the gun control/ infringement issues. If the population were to switch towards a smart, calm, rational approach to gun control that honors the 2nd amendment, I think the NRA would want to be at that table, but they are choosing to expel themselves.
Any gun control is an infringement. If I put controls to your free speech, I've infringed on it. If I put controls governing your ability to travel, I have infringed upon your ability to travel.

It seems you're ignorant to the NRA's history and oblivious to the NRA's support for enforcing certain gun control measures.

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Originally Posted by Whimbrel View Post
Next point, the NRA only has one big weapon in its war chest. Which candidate will they support with money and ads. If they don't like a candidate, they can threaten to withhold donations, or more seriously, they can threaten to back a challenger in a primary. However, neither of these strategies work if the tide swings towards gun control, which could happen, hypothetically. Both the backed incumbent and the backed challenger will both eat shit, rendering the NRA impotent. The NRA only works if they have a significant number of politicians on their payroll in office. It really doesn't matter how much they spend on people who lose elections. The current gun control wave is orders of magnitude larger than the fraudulent tea party wave, and that wave cleaned house.
No, the NRA's biggest weapon is the voting block which it represents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whimbrel View Post
Next point, in the greatest public outcry on gun control in my lifetime, the one position that didn't show up was "go door to door and forcefully disarm the populace using the full military might of the government." If all you have to motivate people are scare tactics about the US becoming Venezuela next Thursday and going door to door to take guns, well, those pie in the sky phobias don't balance well against a parent who has actually lost a kid, or against somebody actually wounded at school, or against classmates traumatized. If all the gun lobby can argue to prevent any and all gun control is that they are scared of stuff that might possibly, in a million years could happen and that is why you can't address what is actually happening, then gun lobby loses. You can't bring a phobia to gunfight and expect to not get your ass kicked. or shot. In this case, actual trumps maybe.
There have been numerous calls to repeal the 2nd Amendment in the likes of the NYT and WAPO, among others. There have been numerous calls to ban and confiscate the likes of AR-15s (which the people often calling this seem to use as a term for anything semi-automatic), and even some to confiscate all privately owned firearms. If you understand how firearms work or have any knowledge about gun violence in the U.S., you'd realize what would obviously come next if you felt AR-15s had to be banned and/or confiscated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whimbrel View Post
Stats. At this point, both sides are loading up pundits with stats about what works, what doesn't work, what might work here, etc. To the extent that the gun lobby sticks with stats that seem irrelevant or disconnected and refuses to engage stats that are more realistic, they seem like liars. (Same for the left) But, this is largely an emotional issue, and if the public is hungry for something to be done, then the one argument that is guaranteed to lose is that we should continue to do nothing, or that dong nothing is working great. The sooner the gun lobby realizes that, the better chance they have of staying in business.
Those against further gun control aren't against doing nothing -- they want the laws currently on the books to be enforced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whimbrel View Post
Last point for now, gun ownership is like cigarette smoking. The cigarette industry had plenty of evidence that cigarettes killed their customers, and caused expensive medical conditions.
This is just plain dumb. Gun ownership is nothing like cigarette smoking. Does it commonly have the user chemically addicted? No. What happens the vast majority of the time if you put a gun in your mouth and light one off? You die. If anything, alcohol is more akin to smoking -- approx. 88,000 deaths per year, according to the CDC. Where is the outcry to ban this?

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Originally Posted by Whimbrel View Post
The only way they could stay in business was to try to recruit new customers to replace the older ones who were sick and dying, while trying to hide this fact from the younger customers they weer trying to appeal to. Well, gun ownership and NRA membership are both also declining, even hunting as a past time has declined.
Reports say NRA membership is actually surging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whimbrel View Post
The hope was to recruit from the younger generation to refill the customer base. But their treat kids like shit and hope they rot in hell attitude has just galvanized a generation against them, cutting them off as a future member source and funding source as well as stripping them of political power. They completely fucked themselves on this.
This is also just plain dumb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whimbrel View Post
There is no actual data on how the 2nd amendment has secured a free state, but we have plenty on gun violence. Even when we rationally admit that the likelihood of getting murdered by a gun or being a victim of a mass shooting is astonishingly low, the reality is that there is no equally easy societal protection from this. That is what people are responding to. It isn't that we are all about to be shot any second now. It is the imbalance that the current laws create in giving one person the means to easily deprive 50 or more people of their civil rights in a few minutes.
Extremely strict gun laws would not equal easy societal protection. If they're responding to this in the hopes that strict gun laws will equate to that, they're dumb. The current laws do not give the person the means to easily deprive 50 people or more of their civil rights. These laws do strip people of their civil rights, putting them in gun free zones in which, shockingly enough, mass murderers don't respect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whimbrel View Post
So, smart, rational, calm gun control will probably involve limiting types of guns, more responsibility for gun owners, sellers, and manufacturers, better training and registration, better background checks, close all gun acquisition loopholes, increase scientific study of gun safety and gun violence. Almost all of these will be considered infringement by some, but when the public cries on tv that their civil rights are being infringed, the courts must try to find a balance, and this one has tipped.
If you're crying on tv that your rights are being infringed and while demanding that the government infringe your rights, you're stupid.

If you call for the further limiting of certain types of firearms, you're going to either have a moronic set of "legal" firearms or you're going to have next to none. The usual stance from authoritarians without a clue like yourself is that we need to ban such firearms at AR-15s. Ignore that other plenty of other firearms which operate essentially in same manner (semi-automatic) and actually fire more powerful rounds exist. No, just AR-15s (which usually means anything that looks tactical). Did you solve gun violence or even put much of a dent into it? Nope. Handguns are responsible for the vast majority of them. Should those be banned and confiscated? How about a nice "compromise" -- just 10 round magazines. Wait, reporting thus far claims that the Florida shooter used 10 round magazines. But that was with an AR-15, aren't those magically powerful? Sure, you can further offer a humorous gun-grabber post by trying to imply that somehow it's so much better being hit with a handgun round (you should see some of them) and be laughed at, but hey, why not. Also, pretend that mass shootings with 9mm and 22lr handguns have never happen -- which killed 32 people in a school shooting. There is reported to be more than 5 million AR-15s in the United States -- that's only one type of semi-automatic rifle, and gun sales absolutely surge whenever gun grabbers like you push to ban them.

"Schools are safer than they were in the 90s, and school shootings are not more common than they used to be, researchers say"

“It’s unnecessary, it’s embarrassing for a lot of the students and it makes them feel isolated and separated from the rest of American school culture where they’re having essentially their First Amendment rights infringed upon because they can’t freely wear whatever backpack they want regardless of what it is,” Hogg said."

Parkland student Delaney Tarr: “When they give us that inch, that bump stock ban, we will take a mile.”

Geez, it's almost as if the gun grabbers wanna grab the guns.
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Old 03-26-2018, 05:56 PM   #319
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Is it just me that finds it funny they are calling the clear backpack issue a 1st amendment infringement when it's really flirting more with infringing on their right to be secure in their belongings and possibility their right against self incrimination (4th & 5th)? The clear backpack makes it trivial to visually identify any contraband in the bag and putting any contraband in the bag is self-incrimination by default cause possession is 9/10th of the law and all...

Didn't any of these kids bother to learn anything besides regurgitating "2nd amendment bad!"

Of course there will be a mighty business in creating backpack liners or tints which will come ever so-close to meeting the letter of the code without crossing over.

Someone invest in a fucking Civics teacher for this school please.
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Old 03-27-2018, 04:08 AM   #320
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Is it just me that finds it funny they are calling the clear backpack issue a 1st amendment infringement when it's really flirting more with infringing on their right to be secure in their belongings and possibility their right against self incrimination (4th & 5th)? The clear backpack makes it trivial to visually identify any contraband in the bag and putting any contraband in the bag is self-incrimination by default cause possession is 9/10th of the law and all...

Didn't any of these kids bother to learn anything besides regurgitating "2nd amendment bad!"

Of course there will be a mighty business in creating backpack liners or tints which will come ever so-close to meeting the letter of the code without crossing over.

Someone invest in a fucking Civics teacher for this school please.
I don't think these kids are changing anyone's mind. People who were already against the 2A probably love these kids but to the rest of the world, they appear entitled and, frankly, stupid. In a way, that's okay. Teenagers are almost always entitled and stupid. But it's never been wise to listen to them on pretty much any matter of importance.
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