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Old 05-17-2017, 02:45 PM   #21
vallor
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Originally Posted by ashikenshin View Post
The dudes who buy comic books are not a group you can fit into one of the left/right/liberal/conservative labes as they are as diverse as it gets. What I think is the reason these comic books are failing is because when you try to cram your stupid ideology/religion into shit by hiring shitty ideologues, the storie's quality suffers. Uninteresting comics don't sell and that's why this is being cancelled.
The experiments are interesting and Marvel isn't necessarily wrong for trying them.

Supposedly this guy is the face of new black literature and one of the leading black voices in at least America. A role model who can help put the struggle into words and pictures and convey that to black youth and maybe do not only a good service but also bring in a demographic to Marvel that aren't typically comic buyers. Which apparently didn't happen.

Not only that but maybe the left wingers who want to support that message would put their money where their mouth is and support the effort and buy the comics too to hand out at community events, high schools, and so on. Which apparently didn't happen (in fact left wing people are known to be the least charitable people) (paywalled article called Bleeding Heart Tightwads - by the New York Times, a very left leaning Paper).

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Liberals show tremendous compassion in pushing for generous government spending to help the neediest people at home and abroad. Yet when it comes to individual contributions to charitable causes, liberals are cheapskates.

Arthur Brooks, the author of a book on donors to charity, “Who Really Cares,” cites data that households headed by conservatives give 30 percent more to charity than households headed by liberals. A study by Google found an even greater disproportion: average annual contributions reported by conservatives were almost double those of liberals.
The great thing is there was no radical change to the characters even if there was some high handed moralizing it was just, as others have said, pushing a very one sided narrative.

But it failed as we've seen over and over.

Marvel has admitted pretty much every effort of exploring diversity outreach has failed. People don't want diversity outreach for the sake of diversity outreach only and especially not at the expense of changing existing characters to fit the new fresh diversity mold for whatever is the oppressed flavor of the month.

No one gives a shit that Storm is a black of African origin because that's who she is and it forms her character. Northstar being gay was a surprise (or maybe not since he is Canadian) but it wasn't some huge retcon or character revamp which contradicted a ton of lore. It's not like they suddenly made him Brazillian or something which is what they're effectively doing by crossing out some words on one page and replacing them with different pronouns or races or ethnicities on the next panel.
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Old 05-17-2017, 03:06 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Terran View Post

51%+ of the comic book buying public is not comprised of racist white nationalists, thank you very much.
I think a lot of people in the alt-right might not like you calling them white racists. However, if that is a distinction you insist on, let's use a better term. What do you call yourself, spectralthunder, and your right wing conservative echo chamber here? Not alt right? OK, what then. You name the term, and let's use that.


What percentage of the comic buying public is "Terran's term for himself"?

What percentage of this forum's active users are "Terran's term for himself"?

What percentage of "Terran's term for himself" don't think they are alt-right?

I'm making no assertion at all here, just asking for your opinion. three numbers. That's it. Just write what you know or think or say you don't know. That's the honest and straight up way to handle this. It would be great to just take that route. No need to keep insulting me over and over. We can let the previous several posts stand for that part of your thesis.
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Old 05-17-2017, 03:29 PM   #23
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Wow, you guys are really acting all frothy. I was just agreeing with Terran that for alt right consumers this comic would have zero appeal due to excessive left wing moralizing from the author in the content. In other words, this comic would be a commercial failure for an alt-right marketplace of consumers. If we go out on a limb and assumed that the current comic buying audience has approximately the same views as this website, then left wing moralizing would make for a pretty unappealing comic book, and likely doom the title to commercial failure.

I then went on to say that even as a liberal, I don't like super hero stuff to be overwrought with whining and lecturing. I found the Luke Cage to be particularly grating, but in hindsight, I didn't really like Jessica Jones or Iron Fist either. I think the recent DC films have also been a touch overdone with heavy doses of real themes, and in the recent Logan, Star Wars, and even Guardians of the Galaxy film everything feels like it has been dialed up to 11 for pathos. Just play the shit goofy as fuck.

My last atrocious comment had to do with the fact that violence against cops and anti cop sentiments have been a part of many comics that succeeded, so as ugly as it might be, I doubt that it played a huge role in the audience reaction.

So, go ahead and take your implied faceplam and other rabid comments and blue lives matter yourselves with them. You guys act like you are waiting in line to circle jerk your responses and not a single one of you bothered to think through what I had written or to realize it was essentially an agreement with Terran's post.
You don't seem the understand the inherent problem in your argument. Compare your first sentence versus your own admission at the end:
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It may be that in an alt right consumer world, this comic won't succeed.
....

Is it because people are tired of having ideology crammed down their throats? Possibly. I know I'm getting pretty sick of it.
You, a self-identified Leftist, have admitted that you feel the particular flavor of ideology being "crammed down" the throats of readers is off-putting. If a self-identified Leftist is sick of it, is it really logical to claim the problem may be that this supposed "alt right consumer world" is damning this particular comic? According to Comichron, the comic book industry has continued to have strong growth.

Now with that in mind, maybe, per your own views, the writing is just hamfisted preaching of a certain view point that is off-putting to people of all ideologies?

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It is staggering to see the lengths you will go to to disagree with me simply because I am a liberal. I make a simple claim that alt right consumers would not be likely to confer commercial success on content that is heavy handed and over the top with left wing ideology, and suddenly you guys all think that is the craziest thing you've ever seen. You want as much left wing patronizing crap shoved down your throats as you can possibly get and you'll all gladly pay through the nose for the privilege? Yeah, right. Don't you guys choke on that amount of bullshit? It is really astonishing.

Can't you just agree with the simple point that people on the alt right would tend to not like left wing moralizing shoved down their throats? Is that really so hard to just stipulate one tiny point of agreement? I don't like it and I'm on the fucking left!
The point isn't that that the supposed alt-right would like this stuff (I don't), the point is that you want to blame the alt-right when apparently even you couldn't stomach the messaging. The idea that the alt-right controls the comic book industry seems to be a rather absurd assumption to me. Comics have long been full of left-wing viewpoints -- but the comic book industry continues to grow. Most places seem to point to the popularity of comic movies as a big reason for this growth, and it's not like the movies were pushing alt-right viewpoints considering some of the very vocal leftists attached to those films.

Also: Do comic books lean left?

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I think a lot of people in the alt-right might not like you calling them white racists. However, if that is a distinction you insist on, let's use a better term. What do you call yourself, spectralthunder, and your right wing conservative echo chamber here? Not alt right? OK, what then. You name the term, and let's use that.
Ah, it seems that by alt-right, you mean non-progressive.
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Many cultures of the world marry girls off after their first menses, around 13 years old. I can't say that's inherently immoral, no.
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Old 05-17-2017, 03:53 PM   #24
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I think a lot of people in the alt-right might not like you calling them white racists. However, if that is a distinction you insist on, let's use a better term. What do you call yourself, spectralthunder, and your right wing conservative echo chamber here? Not alt right? OK, what then. You name the term, and let's use that.
I'm not sure why someone who is proud of their culture and nation, of family values and tradition, of self reliance, hard work and meritocracy, of faith and community that doesn't count enslaving and maiming women as core tenets, is shamed these days with any other noun besides "American" or for those who can't stand that "A" word "Conservative" at worse.

The only discussions allowed these days are the absolutes and those other words sound way to... reasonable and we need them to be Demons and Badguys. Americans aren't REALLY badguys. Conservatives are sometimes but not always.

Alt-right though, white supremacists, well they are ALWAYS badguys. Now we're on to something!

Or maybe I've been reading the wrong things the last few years.
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Old 05-17-2017, 04:26 PM   #25
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I'm not sure why someone who is proud of their culture and nation, of family values and tradition, of self reliance, hard work and meritocracy, of faith and community that doesn't count enslaving and maiming women as core tenets, is shamed these days with any other noun besides "American" or for those who can't stand that "A" word "Conservative" at worse.
Conservative works for me since I'm not American. Can't be a white supremacist since I'm not white. And I don't really get the alt-right, some things I agree with them, some things they say/do are really stupid.

And while I'm proud of my nation, I'm not 100% proud of the culture. I rather we were conquered by the English or Dutch instead of the Spanish.
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Old 05-17-2017, 05:06 PM   #26
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And while I'm proud of my nation, I'm not 100% proud of the culture. I rather we were conquered by the English or Dutch instead of the Spanish.
Yeah, because that turned out ever so well for places like India and South Africa.
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Old 05-17-2017, 05:13 PM   #27
Terran
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I think a lot of people in the alt-right might not like you calling them white racists.
I don't care what they think. You brought the alt right up. If you don't consider them racists, as many in your political tribe most certainly DO, then step up and define the term as you see it, since YOU entered it into the discussion.

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I'm making no assertion at all here
Liar. Just two of the assertions you made in this thread:

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Originally Posted by Whimbrel View Post
It may be that in an alt right consumer world, this comic won't succeed.
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I don't think comic buying market is exclusively alt-right, but I would guess that it approximately parallels the population of this site, so maybe 51% or more.
It is incumbent upon YOU to prove your laughable assertion that comic buyers are majority alt right individuals, not upon others to disprove it. Argumentum Ad Ignorantium makes you a disingenuous debater, if not also a Harry Potter fan...and a lunatic if you really believe it.
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Old 05-17-2017, 05:17 PM   #28
vallor
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Originally Posted by ashikenshin View Post
Conservative works for me since I'm not American. Can't be a white supremacist since I'm not white. And I don't really get the alt-right, some things I agree with them, some things they say/do are really stupid.

And while I'm proud of my nation, I'm not 100% proud of the culture. I rather we were conquered by the English or Dutch instead of the Spanish.
You can totally be a white supremacist even if you aren't white. They've kindly made a space for you and given you your very own slurs. You can choose between sock puppet or race traitor. Black people who are Conservative... sorry I mean alt-right white supremacists get to add Uncle Tom and house n****r to their list of options.

It makes it a little tougher if you aren't American except that you have a better chance of actually being arrested or fined for being a conservative and publicly voicing your opinion.

At least in the US we still nominally have the First Amendment. So while we might be maced or have defenseless people attending a speech beat up or have $500,000 of property damage done in an Anti-fa riot at least we won't go to jail for Facebook posts.

You know like the ones where people get angry about how something needs to be done about the fact young women shouldn't have to be scared of gangs of rapey muslim men every time the girls go to the corner? Or where people are fined $10s of thousands of dollars for calling migrants "scum".
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Old 05-17-2017, 05:23 PM   #29
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Lol I think where I live I have a ton more freedom to speak my mind in either a public setting or online. But, I think it's more because the government is so incompetent that policing speech is beyond their reach.

Thank god the feminists/sjw haven't reached this little place of the earth, and I hope they never do.
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Old 05-17-2017, 07:49 PM   #30
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I think a lot of people in the alt-right might not like you calling them white racists. However, if that is a distinction you insist on, let's use a better term. What do you call yourself, spectralthunder, and your right wing conservative echo chamber here? Not alt right? OK, what then. You name the term, and let's use that.


What percentage of the comic buying public is "Terran's term for himself"?

What percentage of this forum's active users are "Terran's term for himself"?

What percentage of "Terran's term for himself" don't think they are alt-right?

I'm making no assertion at all here, just asking for your opinion. three numbers. That's it. Just write what you know or think or say you don't know. That's the honest and straight up way to handle this. It would be great to just take that route. No need to keep insulting me over and over. We can let the previous several posts stand for that part of your thesis.
Good God you're a whiny bitch. The lefties that are here tend to keep their mouths shut simply because EvAv isn't an echo chamber of progressive drivel.. Your lot tends to display cowardice when they can't control the narrative, or delete posts they disagree with and censor people, much like Bean attempted to do his short time as a mod. It goes along with your pathetic ideology.
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Old 05-18-2017, 02:28 AM   #31
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Reading this thread kind of makes me want to register as a Republican.
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Old 05-18-2017, 06:28 AM   #32
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Good God you're a whiny bitch. The lefties that are here tend to keep their mouths shut simply because EvAv isn't an echo chamber of progressive drivel.. Your lot tends to display cowardice when they can't control the narrative, or delete posts they disagree with and censor people, much like Bean attempted to do his short time as a mod. It goes along with your pathetic ideology.
No, it's just an echo chamber for whatever brand of Conservativism this happens to be. Anything that doesn't perfectly mesh with the narrative here is typically drowned out, labeled with terms like "progressive", and silenced without legitimate discussion. You're either saying something similar to the group, or you're wrong.

It sucks for those of us here who are Moderate. I hate extremist opinions on either side of the aisle and my "leanings" are a mishmash of conservative and liberal ideals because...well, life just isn't black and white, damnit.

You lot are guilty of many (not all) of the same things you accuse the "Liberals" of doing.

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Reading this thread kind of makes me want to register as a Republican.
Reading this thread reminds me why I'm registered as Independent.
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Old 05-18-2017, 06:57 AM   #33
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Anything that doesn't perfectly mesh with the narrative here is typically drowned out, labeled with terms like "progressive", and silenced without legitimate discussion.
Funny how you're able to post something surely many would disagree with and not be 'drowned out' or labeled "progressive" or "silenced." Suffice it to say that this is a clear indication you're simply "wrong." Further proof will come in the event that you disagree with me and yet find your posts un-silenced.

Now back to the lunacy that a majority of the comic book buying community are members of the alt right, lol. What a gigantic pile of shitburger nonsense that is. It is incumbent upon the person making the assertion to back it up, not upon others to disprove it.

Let's see pictures from comic stores and hobby shops of KKK white-hooded gatherings around the country on FCBD,* lol.

* Free Comic Book Day. I know that and I don't buy comics.
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Old 05-18-2017, 07:01 AM   #34
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Hmm... maybe it has to do with the fact Marvel's last several years of comics are failing because they are shit and people tend to not buy shitty comics. They've gone through these cycles before where the heads of the studio try to cash in on whatever is currently trending then saturate the market. The latest trend was based on flimsy social media research where social justice warrior liberalism appeared to be the biggest bandwagon of the day. They first fucked up not realizing that by and large those people don't read, and especially don't read comic books they have to pay for. Next they fucked up by hiring liberal writers who have a disdain for long term fans and love the smell of their own shit.

You can't blame alt-right conservatives (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean) when Marvel has always been about everybody. All people everywhere stopped buying because the comics suck. Jeez, X-Men is as close to pure liberalism as you can get and is a huge seller. If you want to stretch it then blame talentless alt-left liberals who don't understand or hate the material.
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Old 05-18-2017, 07:16 AM   #35
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Funny how you're able to post something surely many would disagree with and not be 'drowned out' or labeled "progressive" or "silenced." Suffice it to say that this is a clear indication you're simply "wrong." Further proof will come in the event that you disagree with me and yet find your posts un-silenced.
It's been up for an hour. Give it time!

For what it's worth, you actually disagreed with the notion and immediately dismissed it. This would, technically speaking, be a method of silencing someone.

Just saying.
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Old 05-18-2017, 07:24 AM   #36
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For what it's worth, you actually disagreed with the notion and immediately dismissed it. This would, technically speaking, be a method of silencing someone.
That's complete bullshit and you should know it. "Silencing" speech is not disagreeing with it. Honestly, that's one of the dumbest things I've ever seen you post. Seriously.

Disagreeing with speech is dialogue and speech. Silencing speech is its absence. And it's not absent when I disagree with you.
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Old 05-18-2017, 07:28 AM   #37
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It's been up for an hour. Give it time!

For what it's worth, you actually disagreed with the notion and immediately dismissed it. This would, technically speaking, be a method of silencing someone.

Just saying.
You hardly come off as moderate Chimpy, moderates don't generally defend every insanity driven leftest position like you tend to. Also no one who's conservative leaning here has ever demanded someone get censored, the same can't be said for the opposite though.
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Old 05-18-2017, 07:39 AM   #38
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That's complete bullshit and you should know it. "Silencing" speech is not disagreeing with it. Honestly, that's one of the dumbest things I've ever seen you post. Seriously.

Disagreeing with speech is dialogue and speech. Silencing speech is its absence. And it's not absent when I disagree with you.
It's not the disagreement; it's the immediate dismissal! Disagreeing with something is fine and healthy. It's stuff like immediately dismissing concepts that falls under "silencing" things that don't fall in line with the group think.

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You hardly come off as moderate Chimpy, moderates don't generally defend every insanity driven leftest position like you tend to. Also no one who's conservative leaning here has ever demanded someone get censored, the same can't be said for the opposite though.
You love to say that I defend every "insantiy-driven leftist position" frequently. Care to support that? What have I defended as of late?
Also, I never said you were clamoring for censorship.
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Old 05-18-2017, 07:42 AM   #39
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It's not the disagreement; it's the immediate dismissal!
OMG, stop. You haven't been silenced if someone dismisses your POSTED IDEAS because they disagree with them. You're still posting them, in fact!

This is lunacy. You're as much of a lunatic on that point as Bumbrel was in calling the comic community majority alt-right. Dismissing lunacy isn't silencing it. Continue babbling about being silenced. I'll disagree with it. You'll miss the irony.
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Old 05-18-2017, 07:51 AM   #40
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OMG, stop. You haven't been silenced if someone dismisses your POSTED IDEAS because they disagree with them. You're still posting them, in fact!

This is lunacy. You're as much of a lunatic on that point as Bumbrel was in calling the comic community majority alt-right. Dismissing lunacy isn't silencing it. Continue babbling about being silenced. I'll disagree with it. You'll miss the irony.
Clearly, the words that were posted are still there.

"Silencing" people you disagree with, in this context, involves your standard frothing at the mouth about how "wrong" they are. Once you dismiss a concept as wrong, you hammer away at them with a series of buzzwords and catchphrases until they just give up...effectively silencing anyone who disagrees with you. It doesn't technically stop them from posting, but you just don't stop until people give up; it rapidly hits a point where it's just not worth saying anything in disagreement to - or even marginally different from -the popular opinion here.

If it doesn't match up with the majority attitude, it gets pushed aside every single time. It happens here, just like it happens in other echo chambers.
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