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Old 03-21-2018, 04:31 PM   #1321
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Uh, many on the Left remain quite fond of Hillary and even those not fond of her on the Left appear to believe she's going to be running again in 2020. She's not done with politics, as she continues to be involved in them, as the media continues to prove.
Salon: The case for Hillary Clinton 2020
Washington Post: Hillary 2020? Trump better hope not. Why Hillary Clinton would be well-positioned to win in a rematch
Politico: Hillary Clinton Is Running Again
Huffington Post: Hillary Clinton 2020 Is a Reality

And even if she were actually done, that doesn't make Hillary's obvious crimes and issues irrelevant if you're supposedly against corruption.

These are opinion pieces, and in one of them it says "Clinton herself has stated that her political career is over, that she is more interested in speaking out against Trump as a private citizen."

Of course anything can happen and 2020 is a ways off yet, but I wouldn't vote for her. Honestly, she wouldn't be able to effectively legislate at this point. It would just be like the current situation with a special council and a bunch of questionable shit going down.

She had an incompetent IT person who didn't know how to secure an email server. I'm not sure if that should be criminal for her. There is no way she knows what smtp even is or understood that this was illegal. I myself have messed around with setting up email servers and it is bizarre how complicated and shitty the whole email system is.

I think in the cover up people did illegal shit, but the Clintons are pretty clever though so I wouldn't be surprised if they did things in a way where it could never go all the way to the top and underlings would end up going to jail.

I imagine the fbi had a pretty hard time with this investigation mostly because the Clintons are clever and devious. In reality proving that Clinton is guilty is probably impossible. I think they also tried to pull strings of government but it doesn't seem like that was super effective in the end, and idk if it was illegal either. Or if it was I'm sure they have enough deniability that nothing will ever be proven.

The Clinton's aren't new to this game. Hillary has been investigated more than anyone in politics I think ever. I'm sure they are very good at it and investigating them is probably super hard.

I also think it is a bad idea to go after people like Clinton, Bush Jr or Cheney though as long as they stay gone from political office. I think it has the potential to destabilize our democracy and is not very far away from dictators who purge their opposition.
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:44 PM   #1322
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One quick take is I assume he went to concord for the purpose of meeting Trump or one of his surrogates, because why else would he be there.
With the assumption, what do you assume the purpose of the meeting was?
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:56 PM   #1323
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With the assumption, what do you assume the purpose of the meeting was?
Honestly, I have no idea. I would think he was an unofficial representative of Russia, but there is not enough information to make a reasonable guess what the meeting was about.
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:11 PM   #1324
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These are opinion pieces, and in one of them it says "Clinton herself has stated that her political career is over, that she is more interested in speaking out against Trump as a private citizen."

Of course anything can happen and 2020 is a ways off yet, but I wouldn't vote for her. Honestly, she wouldn't be able to effectively legislate at this point. It would just be like the current situation with a special council and a bunch of questionable shit going down.
And yet a lot of Leftists seem to think she may return. As you stated, 2020 is a ways off. How many times has a person said they weren't going to run for a political office and then they did?

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She had an incompetent IT person who didn't know how to secure an email server. I'm not sure if that should be criminal for her. There is no way she knows what smtp even is or understood that this was illegal. I myself have messed around with setting up email servers and it is bizarre how complicated and shitty the whole email system is.
It's criminal for her to store, send, and receive classified information on her private server. Her crimes have nothing to do with an IT person's incompetence. If her server had been the most secure server in the history of computing, it still would have been illegal.

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I think in the cover up people did illegal shit, but the Clintons are pretty clever though so I wouldn't be surprised if they did things in a way where it could never go all the way to the top and underlings would end up going to jail.

I imagine the fbi had a pretty hard time with this investigation mostly because the Clintons are clever and devious. In reality proving that Clinton is guilty is probably impossible. I think they also tried to pull strings of government but it doesn't seem like that was super effective in the end, and idk if it was illegal either. Or if it was I'm sure they have enough deniability that nothing will ever be proven.
Actually, Hillary was incredibly stupid -- nothing was clever about this. The simple existence of the server, which was due to her demands, was a smoking gun. They proved Hillary was guilty -- she had a hundred + classified documents, some of which were marked classified (which doesn't actually matter), on her private account. Comey stated she shared classified information to those without the proper clearance. It was shown that Hillary instructed her maid to print out classified information.

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The Clinton's aren't new to this game. Hillary has been investigated more than anyone in politics I think ever. I'm sure they are very good at it and investigating them is probably super hard.

I also think it is a bad idea to go after people like Clinton, Bush Jr or Cheney though as long as they stay gone from political office. I think it has the potential to destabilize our democracy and is not very far away from dictators who purge their opposition.
The FBI has made public objective proof that she committed crimes. It's not very far away from a dictator purging their opposition to charge someone like Hillary with the crimes she unquestionably committed? So, whenever Trump leaves office, you'd be okay with him not being charged with a crime that was unquestionably proven?

To me, not charging these people moves us closer to a dictatorship than charging them with crimes. These aren't imaginary crimes, but ones that non-elites are charged for breaking. Her crimes weren't simple mistakes; they were calculated, she was knowingly committing them, and they were carried out with zero regard for any laws or security concerns for the country.

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Honestly, I have no idea. I would think he was an unofficial representative of Russia, but there is not enough information to make a reasonable guess what the meeting was about.
It seems safe to say that your theory is that this was some sort of collusion between Trump and Russia.
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:12 PM   #1325
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I'm going to look at this response more in depth in a bit. But it is a good and reasoned rebuttal to what I said and not just a bunch of nonsense.

One quick take is I assume he went to concord for the purpose of meeting Trump or one of his surrogates, because why else would he be there. He quickly realized Trump was still in Charlotte and hadn't come to concord yet. So he immediately flew to Charlotte to do the meeting. If anything these events make it even more likely that the purpose of travel was to meet with Trump or his surrogates.

This makes sense with the events and timeline. It is also the most logical explanation, because why did he go to concord, where Trump was scheduled to be, and then not even deplane? He then went straight to Charlotte where Trump was.

The only other reasonable possibility is that he was meeting someone else that was attending the rally in Concord that was also in Charlotte. This isn't impossible but this person would really have to be very rich for this to make sense, and at that point basically a big donor and Trump surrogate. Any other explanation seems pretty unlikely.

I will take a look at the other stuff in a bit.
Instead of wasting your time why not google fusion GPS and see yet another reason why Hillary should be in jail instead on top of all the other reasons her and Billy boy should be rotting in a prison cell.
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:52 PM   #1326
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So, whenever Trump leaves office, you'd be okay with him not being charged with a crime that was unquestionably proven?
Yes. Similar to Nixon.

I think it wouldn't be hard to put a case together that Cheney and Bush Jr engaged in war crimes as well, but I don't think we should.

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And yet a lot of Leftists seem to think she may return. As you stated, 2020 is a ways off. How many times has a person said they weren't going to run for a political office and then they did?
This is definitely not a commonly held view. More people think Oprah will run.

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It's criminal for her to store, send, and receive classified information on her private server. Her crimes have nothing to do with an IT person's incompetence. If her server had been the most secure server in the history of computing, it still would have been illegal.
https://www.politico.com/story/2016/...l-email-227889

This was not an uncommon practice. Colin Powell did the same thing as secretary of state.

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It seems safe to say that your theory is that this was some sort of collusion between Trump and Russia.
Possibly. I think whatever happened was probably part of a criminal conspiracy or an attempt to develop trump as an intelligence asset for Russia. It could've been blackmail, it could've been collusion like you are suggesting. It also could've been a violation of the hatch act.

There are a lot of possibilities, but not a lot of reasonable possibilities that are good.
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:56 PM   #1327
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What's amazing is we know Hillary broke laws, hell we know Obama as well broke laws, we have physical proof of both. But those on the left are more interested in delegitimizing a legally elected POTUS while creating reasons out of thin air to do so. Eats you have pretty much proven that you really couldn't give two shits about US law, only that it's ok to break laws if you're a democrat.
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:56 PM   #1328
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Instead of wasting your time why not google fusion GPS and see yet another reason why Hillary should be in jail instead on top of all the other reasons her and Billy boy should be rotting in a prison cell.
Oppo research is not illegal.
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:58 PM   #1329
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What's amazing is we know Hillary broke laws, hell we know Obama as well broke laws, we have physical proof of both. But those on the left are more interested in delegitimizing a legally elected POTUS while creating reasons out of thin air to do so. Eats you have pretty much proven that you really couldn't give two shits about US law, only that it's ok to break laws if you're a democrat.
I think I've been pretty clear and nothing I said could reasonably be construed as me thinking "it's ok to break laws if you're a democrat. "
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Old 03-21-2018, 06:39 PM   #1330
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I think I've been pretty clear and nothing I said could reasonably be construed as me thinking "it's ok to break laws if you're a democrat. "
Your words have said that. You yourself don't give a shit that the Clintons have a rap sheet a mile long for laws they've broken. What was it? She's done? Who cares? You certainly don't. Meanwhile you're practically claiming russian collusion due to a real estate deal from a decade ago before Trump had shit to do with politics at all. It's what you idiots do. And when someone does provide the evidence of wrong doing you hand wave it away as a conspiracy theory, all the mean time supporting conspiracy theories aimed at Trump. It's hypocrisy at it's finest.

I provided you links in which liberal law makers want to allow illegals to vote, you simply hand waved it away, you're not concerned with voter fraud, despite evidence to the contrary, yet I have no doubt if illegals were voting for republicans, the left wouldn't pursue the path they're on of putting illegals above US Citizens. To be honest the fact that it's going on at all should be eye opening to you, the fact that you don't seem to give a fuck speaks volumes.
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Old 03-21-2018, 07:13 PM   #1331
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Your words have said that. You yourself don't give a shit that the Clintons have a rap sheet a mile long for laws they've broken. What was it? She's done? Who cares? You certainly don't. Meanwhile you're practically claiming russian collusion due to a real estate deal from a decade ago before Trump had shit to do with politics at all. It's what you idiots do. And when someone does provide the evidence of wrong doing you hand wave it away as a conspiracy theory, all the mean time supporting conspiracy theories aimed at Trump. It's hypocrisy at it's finest.
Improperly securing documents and covering it up? Yes that definitely happened. If she was president I think she'd be impeached already.

She isn't though and as a matter of policy I don't think she should be pursued, just like Nixon, Bush Jr and Cheney. Frankly I don't care about her and would personally prefer if she was in jail. I just think preserving our democracy is more important than a has-been like Clinton. Same with Bush Jr and Nixon.


The way Trump behaves towards Russia is so fucking weird unless there is something going on that we don't know about.

He refused to say they poisoned the ex-spy in the UK for so long, and then when he did he hemmed and hawed and did it the most meek way possible.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/14/u...g-britain.html

It is bizarre, and all of his actions towards Russia are inexplicable unless they have something they are holding over him. It isn't 4d chess. Something is fucked up and you can keep dancing around it and pretending that everything is totally normal, but it isn't.

Pence should be president and he should enforce a bunch of extremist religious ideology instead, because at least we can be sure he is acting in what he believes are the interests of america.

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I provided you links in which liberal law makers want to allow illegals to vote, you simply hand waved it away,
You literally didn't do this. What is wrong with you?

You really don't remember that you did not do this?


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you're not concerned with voter fraud, despite evidence to the contrary, yet I have no doubt if illegals were voting for republicans, the left wouldn't pursue the path they're on of putting illegals above US Citizens. To be honest the fact that it's going on at all should be eye opening to you, the fact that you don't seem to give a fuck speaks volumes.
You didn't provide any evidence of this at all. You showed that people are registered in 2 states, but not that they are voting in 2 states. I provided a bunch of evidence suggesting that actual double voting is rare and it is a small problem.
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Old 03-21-2018, 07:39 PM   #1332
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Improperly securing documents and covering it up? Yes that definitely happened. If she was president I think she'd be impeached already.

She isn't though and as a matter of policy I don't think she should be pursued, just like Nixon, Bush Jr and Cheney. Frankly I don't care about her and would personally prefer if she was in jail. I just think preserving our democracy is more important than a has-been like Clinton. Same with Bush Jr and Nixon.


The way Trump behaves towards Russia is so fucking weird unless there is something going on that we don't know about.

He refused to say they poisoned the ex-spy in the UK for so long, and then when he did he hemmed and hawed and did it the most meek way possible.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/14/u...g-britain.html

It is bizarre, and all of his actions towards Russia are inexplicable unless they have something they are holding over him. It isn't 4d chess. Something is fucked up and you can keep dancing around it and pretending that everything is totally normal, but it isn't.

Pence should be president and he should enforce a bunch of extremist religious ideology instead, because at least we can be sure he is acting in what he believes are the interests of america.



You literally didn't do this. What is wrong with you?

You really don't remember that you did not do this?




You didn't provide any evidence of this at all. You showed that people are registered in 2 states, but not that they are voting in 2 states. I provided a bunch of evidence suggesting that actual double voting is rare and it is a small problem.
That's the tip of the ice berg for voter fraud, like the woman who got caught voting for Obama multiple times, if you believe that's an isolated incident well I don't know what to tell you. It's interesting that voter fraud always seems to be in favor of liberals though. I wonder why that is? You're welcome to research it yourself but you won't. Folks like you enjoy being ignorant it makes it easier to hand wave shit away.

The funny thing is the shit the Clintons and really Obama as well with his illegal spying have done makes what Nixon was impeached for look like child's play. Yet the democrats always seem to get away without so much as a slap on the wrist, I guess when you weaponize the intelligence agencies and the FBI as Obama did it's much easier to get away with crimes.

I would hazard a guess that Trump doesn't want to start WW3, had Hillsy been elected we very well may have already had WW3 as that would have been the perfect excuse to put all those fema camps the Obozo administration installed all across the US into action. Seeing as though anyone with a brain knows Obama hates the US and always has, goes along with being a muslim really. You know "his muslim faith" and all.
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:34 PM   #1333
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That's the tip of the ice berg for voter fraud, like the woman who got caught voting for Obama multiple times, if you believe that's an isolated incident well I don't know what to tell you. It's interesting that voter fraud always seems to be in favor of liberals though.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:12 PM   #1334
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Nice cherry picking.
https://nypost.com/2017/07/14/the-vo...refuse-to-see/

https://empowertexans.com/around-tex...y-voter-fraud/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...oting/2530119/
"In a case watched around the country, Melowese Richardson was a Hamilton County poll worker from 1998 until her arrest earlier this year when she was charged with eight counts of illegal voting. In May, she accepted a plea deal and was convicted of four counts in exchange for the other four being dismissed.

"This is not a little thing. It's not a minor thing. This is what our country's based on free elections," Judge Robert Ruehlman of Hamilton County Common Pleas Court told Richardson, chastizing her for violating the principle of one person, one vote.

She was convicted of voting twice in the 2012 election and voting three times in 2008, 2011 and 2012 for her sister, Montez Richardson, who has been in a coma since 2003."

But hey it isn't at all widespread. This one single douche did it for years before getting caught, and I doubt she's the only one. I wonder if Obama sent her a free phone.
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Old 03-22-2018, 12:24 AM   #1335
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But hey it isn't at all widespread. This one single douche did it for years before getting caught, and I doubt she's the only one. I wonder if Obama sent her a free phone.
You can't prove a negative.

One side says there is nothing to pursue because we only found a few instances.

The other says there is tons and the reason the evidence is so small is because there is no interest in pursuing the issue so of course there is so few and they get obstructed when they try to do a comprehensive audit.

It would be simple to have people show up with a free and easy to get ID card for all legal voters they presented when they voted. It would register both at the regional/state/national level. One card = one vote.

It would also make recounts less of an issue. The tens and hundreds of millions saved on recounts would likely pay for the entirety of this voter registration and counting system.

Presumably the staff at the election centers could be trusted to make sure they weren't letting people not pictured on the ID vote and scanners could verify if the ID itself were fraudulent.

It would put most voter fraud questions to bed. I am not sure why neither side would want to do this but there is no political will to put such a system in place on either side.

It would also effectively perform an audit of the voter rolls, which we apparently could really use.
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Old 03-22-2018, 01:33 AM   #1336
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You can't prove a negative.

One side says there is nothing to pursue because we only found a few instances.

The other says there is tons and the reason the evidence is so small is because there is no interest in pursuing the issue so of course there is so few and they get obstructed when they try to do a comprehensive audit.

It would be simple to have people show up with a free and easy to get ID card for all legal voters they presented when they voted. It would register both at the regional/state/national level. One card = one vote.

It would also make recounts less of an issue. The tens and hundreds of millions saved on recounts would likely pay for the entirety of this voter registration and counting system.

Presumably the staff at the election centers could be trusted to make sure they weren't letting people not pictured on the ID vote and scanners could verify if the ID itself were fraudulent.

It would put most voter fraud questions to bed. I am not sure why neither side would want to do this but there is no political will to put such a system in place on either side.

It would also effectively perform an audit of the voter rolls, which we apparently could really use.
But apparently it's racist to require ID to vote, despite needing ID for a million things in everyday life. So really what are the democrats trying to protect?
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Old 03-22-2018, 02:54 AM   #1337
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Nice cherry picking.
https://nypost.com/2017/07/14/the-vo...refuse-to-see/

https://empowertexans.com/around-tex...y-voter-fraud/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...oting/2530119/
"In a case watched around the country, Melowese Richardson was a Hamilton County poll worker from 1998 until her arrest earlier this year when she was charged with eight counts of illegal voting. In May, she accepted a plea deal and was convicted of four counts in exchange for the other four being dismissed.

"This is not a little thing. It's not a minor thing. This is what our country's based on free elections," Judge Robert Ruehlman of Hamilton County Common Pleas Court told Richardson, chastizing her for violating the principle of one person, one vote.

She was convicted of voting twice in the 2012 election and voting three times in 2008, 2011 and 2012 for her sister, Montez Richardson, who has been in a coma since 2003."

But hey it isn't at all widespread. This one single douche did it for years before getting caught, and I doubt she's the only one. I wonder if Obama sent her a free phone.
I didn't cherry pick. Kobach headed Trumps voter fraud council. That is every voter fraud case he tried.

Here's the thing. There already are systems looking for double voting across state lines.

If this was an epidemic we wouldn't be talking about less than 10 cases over a decade. We are talking about over 1 billion votes cast in that time period.

Also how would any of this voter id stuff even matter when you can just absentee vote, which would be a much easier system to use if you were serious about perpetrating massive voter fraud anyway.
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Old 03-22-2018, 03:02 AM   #1338
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The funny thing is the shit the Clintons and really Obama as well with his illegal spying have done makes what Nixon was impeached for look like child's play. Yet the democrats always seem to get away without so much as a slap on the wrist, I guess when you weaponize the intelligence agencies and the FBI as Obama did it's much easier to get away with crimes.
Here's what I don't understand. Comey is a republican. He donated to John McCain in 2008 and Mitt Romney in 2012. That means he almost certainly voted against Obama.

McCabe is also a republican that voted against Obama.

But you are saying these people and tons of other republicans at these national security agencies helped Obama "weaponize" the FBI and turn it into an institution that only served democratic interests. How does that make sense to you? Why would they ever do that?

By almost all accounts these are very honorable men. Why would they help Obama undermine democracy and also undermine their own political party? It makes no sense.
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Old 03-22-2018, 03:22 AM   #1339
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If this was an epidemic we wouldn't be talking about less than 10 cases over a decade. We are talking about over 1 billion votes cast in that time period.
The contention is that we ARE talking about hundreds of thousands if not millions of votes.

Again, neither side is able to prove the negative.

For one side to do it costs hundreds of millions of dollars (or billions) in administrative and tech which after the drum being beat over and over come off as being petty and expensive for no real gain.

The other side claims racism and other exclusionary tactics which, after being repeated over and over, come off as diversionary.
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Old 03-22-2018, 03:43 AM   #1340
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The contention is that we ARE talking about hundreds of thousands if not millions of votes.

Again, neither side is able to prove the negative.

For one side to do it costs hundreds of millions of dollars (or billions) in administrative and tech which after the drum being beat over and over come off as being petty and expensive for no real gain.

The other side claims racism and other exclusionary tactics which, after being repeated over and over, come off as diversionary.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.4a1891f479e4

There are 2 systems. Kris Kobach has the crosscheck system and is desperate to find voter fraud because it is how he wants to make his political star go up.

Despite all of this motivation to find voter fraud he has barely found any cases.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/polit...148434369.html

Here you can see him sucking his own dick about all 10 cases he found.

There is also the ERIC system which already has 23 states in it.

http://www.ericstates.org/

People are looking. Kris Kobach is looking desperately.

If this was real they should be finding a fuck ton of fraud. Even if they only found 0.5% of all voter fraud it should number in the thousands of cases assuming Trump won the popular vote.

This isn't a case of both sides having equally reasonable arguments. There aren't real arguments supporting the idea of massive voter fraud and people are looking for them.

On Kris Kobach:

"Rep. John Carmichael, a Democrat from Wichita, questioned whether it was a worthwhile use of taxpayers money to “have a full legal staff over there and only find 8 or 9 violations to prosecute.”

“Either, it’s not happening to the degree that the secretary of state imagines, or he and his staff are wasting the taxpayers’ money,” Carmichael said."
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