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Old 04-25-2012, 01:39 AM   #21
Phoenix1985
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I'm still playing it, mostly for the endgame content, but the legacy system is going to give this a real boost. Especially if I manage to snag those XP boosters for my alts.
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Old 04-25-2012, 01:54 AM   #22
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I had a guess they were losing subs when they started doing "free weekends" not too long after it's launch. I mean the client is 30+ GB, this early into it's life cycle it has free weekends?

Though I do have to say, them giving people a free month due to bugs and delays of the 1.2 patch was a good move on their part. Sure it was all PR driven to help garner some good will from the playerbase, how many other mmo companies for paid AAA mmos give out free months? Even Blizzard, who has one of the largest mmos world wide, only gives out maybe a free day or two when there is the rare long-term server outage.

I think it's probably hit it's "peak" of paid subs but I doubt it's losing people in droves as some may think. It'll have a seat at the mmo round table for years to come and carve out a niche of the market for itself.
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Old 04-25-2012, 02:13 AM   #23
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1m+ subs is pretty substantial in any case, likely profitable over operating expenses (if not dev costs). But it's not a homerun.
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Old 04-25-2012, 02:21 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Peelzbury View Post
hmm. I dont know why these companies waste their time trying to go big in the mmo genre.
It's a recipe for disaster.
It's not really a disaster when you have the license to do a Star Wars MMORPG. However they managed to create a bland game even with their huge budget, that indeed is a disaster.

Noone from my year-long WoW guild still has his SWTOR subscription, most cancelled after the first free month. Most don't play WoW anymore, either (DOTA & Diablo seem to be the new stuff), but WoW has been running for years by now.
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Old 04-25-2012, 02:51 AM   #25
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they managed to create a bland game even with their huge budget, that indeed is a disaster.
No one's yet really figured out how to spend money to make this nebulous quality we call 'gameplay' better without fail.

When you have a budget of hundreds of millions, and suits on your back, showing them 'better' gameplay doesn't mean much, because fixing gameplay can mean tweaks of an extremely subtle nature.

Whether gameplay feels satisfying and crisp in the short and long-term is often more an intuitive feeling, it resists quantification in concrete terms because it exists within a larger context among many interrelated parts that would fail in isolation.

Companies resort to iteration thereby, along with their own reaction to what they're creating (which assumes the devs are both gamers, and gamers with broad enough experience to have developed representative good-taste).

Anyway, that's why I think they went the voice acting route. It's really easy to say 'we recorded 100 hours of professional voice-acting this month' as opposed to 'we made the gameplay feel a bit more slick.'

But, at the end of the day, it's the gameplay that matters more for the long-term success of the game.

It is an encouraging sign that companies cannot simply buy popularity in this market. Did EA really think they could buy WoW-level quality for just a few hundred million? And then spend most of it on voice-acting? Something that wow eschews almost entirely? Can you imagine how awesome the game could have been if those hundreds of millions have been spent building the game itself rather than voice acting?
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Old 04-25-2012, 04:04 AM   #26
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These are not the subscriptions you are looking for. *waves hand*

Guild Wars 2 still feels like the one to watch, no subs required and during the beta events game play has felt slick, the world felt more alive and random grouping had a very natural feel to it.
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Old 04-25-2012, 04:08 AM   #27
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pve is for scrubs.
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Old 04-25-2012, 04:50 AM   #28
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its like AoC, you soooo wish to be good, but it's not.

mmo fun: play gw2
pvp fun: play eve online or apb:r (maybe gw2...)
random mp: play l4d2 or diablo3/path of exile
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:04 AM   #29
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People keep touting Guild Wars 2 but do people expect it to be a runway smash hit? I guess I just have my doubts. It certainly looks like a well made game but WoW drew in big numbers because of the Wii effect in that it was/is played by people who normally don't play games. I think that some of that bled over the SWTOR but I just don't see that same crowd having any interest in GW2. I'm not saying that Arena.net needs those people. I'm just wondering how many of you expect them to give GW2 a try.
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:37 AM   #30
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I think the pre-release media killed this title. Every preview that wasn't a shell said the game felt empty and boring.
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:44 AM   #31
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We will really know if they are, if they state that they are going free to play... Which I think will happen once Guild Wars 2 comes out.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:53 AM   #32
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SWTOR isn't a bad MMO, but it hinged everything on the story and dialogue, which has NEVER been the 'meat' of the genre and can't carry a game like this. As much fun as it is to do quests and dialogue with friends, it lacks staying power.

What Bioware should have done was design a Single Player game with a small multiplayer option to play the story with friends, and a larger multiplayer option for the battlegrounds, and then milk us for DLC instead of a monthly subscription. Outside of those two situations, the multiplayer 'MMO' experience offers little and places strong limitations oh what one can do with the game.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:56 AM   #33
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MMO's are a dying breed...that is fueled today by people who aren't very good at games and people who wish they could have fun like they did when they started with Evercrack.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:58 AM   #34
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hmm. I dont know why these companies waste their time trying to go big in the mmo genre.
It's a recipe for disaster. ppl play these games mostly to socialize with unique and interesting people (in some cases as a substitute for socializing at all) - not just to run pve content. If ppl enjoyed pve over interaction and pvp -we'd all still be playing oblivion.

Most mmos are smartening up though and going F2p. STO and more recently Aion did this and it's so refreshing to play a game you dont feel like you 'have' to play just to justify paying for it - even if it's just 50 cent a day.

But until these companies get serious about a pvp model that is fun, rewarding and also has a step ladder for new players to get in and enjoy it without getting roflstomped (at all level brackets not just max level) - I expect each mmo that doesnt do this to follow the usual formula:

Get released, Seem fun for 3 months and then begin to die a slow painful death.
The Old Republic was announced back when WoW was was just about to get the WotLK expansion; we were still running around in Outland. The MMO scene was very different back then; F2P was something only the nasty Korean MMOs. Aion had only just released and STO was still years out; the concept of the "WoW Killer" was still considered viable(and thought to be a game, rather than time...) and we were still knee-deep in the MMO boom. Four years ago, there was absolutely no way to see that the market would move toward the F2P model so wholeheartedly.

Besides, half of your argument is predicated on the idea that everyone who plays an MMO actually care about PVP; I and many others in my WoW guild and on my server care more for the PVE experience while PVP is ultimately a fun little distraction. Don't assume everyone cares about a robust PVP...because not everyone does.
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:00 AM   #35
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MMO's are a dying breed...that is fueled today by people who aren't very good at games and people who wish they could have fun like they did when they started with Evercrack.
That's just a dumbass thing to say. It's not even worth picking apart.

Dumbass.
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:11 AM   #36
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If they were serious about "community" then they wouldn't have postponed their best weapon to foster community until patch 1.3 (still several months away). I'm talking about a same server dungeon finder.

Making people sit in fleet, doing NOTHING, while waiting for a dungeon group was the height of stupidity. You couldn't even actively craft to kill time, just send your guys out every 10 minutes. Postponing that in favor of the bullshit Legacy system was the cherry-on-top.

Doing NOTHING while the Empire exploited the hell out of Ilum for a week showed what calibar of dunderheads are in-charge.

If you want community you first need your players to trust that you have the best interest of the community in mind and are giving them the tools they need. Bioware can't sustain the community by itself. I don't believe Bioware has earned that credibilty or trust in the MMO market (and has lost it in all others).

Assuming that each player "costs" an average of $7 (bandwidth, support, money reinvested into the project) they *may* be earning $8 per player per month. At a rumored $250m it will take a LOOOOONG time of $8 a month to make back the initial spend, much less show a profit at 1m players.

p.s. I liked the plague idea 5 years ago... when it was in World of Warcraft, became the subject of tons of world-wide media (even real news!) and the basis for a whole generation of thesis' (thesi? thesises?).
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:26 AM   #37
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At some point, MMO companies are going to realize that "level-based" gameplay is a stalling mechanism. These games are all about the end-game. So why not spend 90% of your assets on the end-game and 10% on the tutorial, instead of 90% on the leveling content, which most people will experience some small fraction of exactly once?

It's just horribly, horribly inefficient to squander your budget balancing transient power levels and power gain, designing dungeons and quests that most players will never see, rather than designing compelling end-game content that everyone will play and tools to make it easy to experience.

The end-game is not an afterthought. It is the game.
Eventually they may start building them accordingly.
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:40 AM   #38
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For me- I couldnt even be bothered with this game.
An MMO needs to do something completely different for me to want to get into it. Voice acting isnt one of the requirements.

I also kind of hate star wars- so there was that too.

I think this game was just a bad idea all around.
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:44 AM   #39
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Besides, half of your argument is predicated on the idea that everyone who plays an MMO actually care about PVP; I and many others in my WoW guild and on my server care more for the PVE experience while PVP is ultimately a fun little distraction. Don't assume everyone cares about a robust PVP...because not everyone does.
I would have to agree with this. The casual players that made WoW such a smash success don't care about PvP at all.

I don't think they care about voice acting either. They care about having "interesting" places to explore. There is almost a complete and total lack of "interesting" environments to explore in Old Republic. Look at the beginning area for Sith -- it is a complete snooze fest of generic hallways.

That isn't how you bring people in and get them to stay. Look at the beginning areas of almost any WoW race -- they are some damn cool environments and places to explore.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:04 AM   #40
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Less if something else comes out that catches their eye. No matter how you slice it, having your game bomb out after only 4 months is a huge failure for a game that was like a 300+ Million investment.
For that much money they could have made a Kotor 3,4,5 and Jade Empire 2 and made a boat load of money.

I loved kotor and I really like most Bioware games. I would try it SWTOR if it went free to play.
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