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Old 05-24-2018, 07:21 AM   #21
smgalia
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Diversity IS a great thing to have in any aspect of anything, weather it's writing or underwater basket weaving. However, being diverse JUST for the sake of being diverse is wrong, and in my opinion, kind of a racist thing. Let people discover that the writers are diverse instead of it being a selling point. All that does it turn people off from the movie/book/TV show.
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Old 05-24-2018, 07:47 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by JazGalaxy View Post
...
That may all be relevant if the quality is already equal but it very often isn't. Including a woman in a male dominated story, as you mentioned, doesn't make it better in and of itself. It makes it different, possibly better, possibly worse, possibly of similar quality. And that holds true in pretty much every case. You act as if quality in writing is completely subjective but this isn't true. There's a difference between what makes writing of higher quality and what makes a particular story more appealing to one person or another. And quality writing should be a higher priority. I well written story can make a less appealing story still be strong in the end. A poorly written story, even about a subject you find appealing, still sucks. They're not mutually exclusive of course but simply including diversity doesn't increase overall quality. For instance, I re-watched Black Panther last night with the family and we all liked the movie but I can't help but feel that they included Martin Freeman as a major cog in the story as a way to get me involved, like he's the guy I'm supposed to identify with because he's playing the American white guy. But mostly I just felt like he didn't really belong in the story. His presence was awkward at times and forgettable the rest even though I do like Freeman and the character of Everett Ross. The movie would have been fine or even better without him. You say that the world is diverse but not every story is and there's nothing wrong or inherently weaker by telling the story that doesn't hit multiple check boxes.

As an aside, your points about the female involvement in Watchmen are pretty weak in my opinion. You downplay their roles because it's convenient to your argument but I would argue that they were just as important as the male characters, who were by and large, losers. One of the major themes of Watchmen was how seedy and ineffective a lot of these characters were. None of them, not even the one super powered character, was a real hero as we traditionally view them.
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Old 05-24-2018, 07:55 AM   #23
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If all people are equal, why do we need to have diversity?.
While the sentiment that all people are created equal is still alive and well, that hasn't always been the case in practice. Unfortunately, steps taken to correct past injustices have led to over-correction in most cases...which lead to things like "affirmative action" and "diversity hires".

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Amusingly enough, this is just as applicable to the folks who start spouting off the moment statements such as, "In [our writers'] room, Hetero White Men like myself are in the minority" are uttered.

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For instance, I re-watched Black Panther last night with the family and we all liked the movie but I can't help but feel that they included Martin Freeman as a major cog in the story as a way to get me involved, like he's the guy I'm supposed to identify with because he's playing the American white guy. But mostly I just felt like he didn't really belong in the story. His presence was awkward at times and forgettable the rest even though I do like Freeman and the character of Everett Ross. The movie would have been fine or even better without him. You say that the world is diverse but not every story is and there's nothing wrong or inherently weaker by telling the story that doesn't hit multiple check boxes.
For what it's worth, Agent Ross has been around since 1998, filling a similar role in the comics as he did the movies. He's more of an "audience surrogate" character than anything else; his presence makes it easier for certain things to be explained or demonstrated that would otherwise be left unexplained. Since he's the "new guy" in Wakanda, it enables the audience to learn alongside the character. He's sorta similar to the reason why Robin was first introduced in Batman comics. Prior to his appearance, the writers were having trouble conveying Batman's thoughts and plans. They brought Robin in to give Batman someone to talk to, which helped the writers provide more information during the stories.

Ross served a useful purpose, from a storytelling perspective.
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Old 05-24-2018, 08:08 AM   #24
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Amusingly enough, this is just as applicable to the folks who start spouting off the moment statements such as, "In [our writers'] room, Hetero White Men like myself are in the minority" are uttered.
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Old 05-24-2018, 08:19 AM   #25
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Let people discover that the writers are diverse instead of it being a selling point. All that does it turn people off from the movie/book/TV show.
With all due respect, you are exactly playing the rationale for why the diversity movements exist on the first place.

"All that does is turn people off from the movie/book/tv show"

That very well may be the case for you and your white male friends. By the point of the diversity proponents is that they completely disagree with you, and they win because they are talking about themselves. You or I may.feel that the strength of the content is what matters, but as Wonder Woman and Black Panther prove, there are MILLIONS of people out there who will choose what to look at based on the amount of effort the creators put into catering to them as an audience.

It's like being a fat person trying to fly on an airline. All other options being equal, it's not unreasonable or unjustifiable that the fat person would choose to buy from The airline that has specific verbiage about accommodating overweight passengers.
That might not mean anything to YOU. But what means very little to you may mean a great deal to someone else.
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Old 05-24-2018, 08:34 AM   #26
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That may all be relevant if the quality is already equal but it very often isn't. Including a woman in a male dominated story, as you mentioned, doesn't make it better in and of itself. It makes it different, possibly better, possibly worse, possibly of similar quality. And that holds true in pretty much every case. You act as if quality in writing is completely subjective but this isn't true. There's a difference between what makes writing of higher quality and what makes a particular story more appealing to one person or another. And quality writing should be a higher priority. I well written story can make a less appealing story still be strong in the end. A poorly written story, even about a subject you find appealing, still sucks. They're not mutually exclusive of course but simply including diversity doesn't increase overall quality. For instance, I re-watched Black Panther last night with the family and we all liked the movie but I can't help but feel that they included Martin Freeman as a major cog in the story as a way to get me involved, like he's the guy I'm supposed to identify with because he's playing the American white guy. But mostly I just felt like he didn't really belong in the story. His presence was awkward at times and forgettable the rest even though I do like Freeman and the character of Everett Ross. The movie would have been fine or even better without him. You say that the world is diverse but not every story is and there's nothing wrong or inherently weaker by telling the story that doesn't hit multiple check boxes.

As an aside, your points about the female involvement in Watchmen are pretty weak in my opinion. You downplay their roles because it's convenient to your argument but I would argue that they were just as important as the male characters, who were by and large, losers. One of the major themes of Watchmen was how seedy and ineffective a lot of these characters were. None of them, not even the one super powered character, was a real hero as we traditionally view them.
I guess I fundamentally disagree that writing isn't entirely subjective.

As for the women in Watchmen, I don't believe I'm simplifying their roles at all. The Asian lady Is literally one one page to say that she was carrying the comedians baby before she is shot in the face. Silk Spectre 1 is a victim of attempted rape and goes back to her rapist for more, apparently, at some point.Silk Spectre 2 is the product of that relationship. I dont think there are any other women in the book. Yes, you can make a point that all the characters are flawed, but my point is that's ignoring just how much women dislike rape. Men use it as a casual plot point, but generally many women don't find it entertaining and instead find it's inclusion to be offputting. It's also potentially problematic that all the male characters grapple with their own personal insecurities and failings while the female characters are intrinsically tied to their relationships with men. Silk Spectre is basically having father issues and boyfriend issues. Silk Spectre 1 is a victim. The Asian lady had a baby to come to America and got killed by her partner.
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Old 05-24-2018, 08:39 AM   #27
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Diversity IS a great thing to have in any aspect of anything, weather it's writing or underwater basket weaving. However, being diverse JUST for the sake of being diverse is wrong, and in my opinion, kind of a racist thing. Let people discover that the writers are diverse instead of it being a selling point. All that does it turn people off from the movie/book/TV show.
I think the second that you start telling everyone how "diverse" your casting is or how "diverse" that your writing staff is as a selling point, it is almost certainly going to suck because it becomes obvious at that point that you didn't choose your staff based on their talent, but based on the fact that they fit some diversity checklist.

It's actually kinda racist, because now you are saying that people can't get the job if they are a white male. Telling someone you can't get a job because you are white is racist, telling someone they can't get a job because of their sex is sexist.

The left has become everything they claim to hate.

I'm certainly interested in this show because it's Watchmen and because it's on HBO so I know they don't have to pull any punches, but they really lept off on the wrong foot by bragging about diversity instead of bragging about talent.

You want to impress me, tell me which award-winning shows or award-winning novels your writing staff has written and then I'll be impressed. The color of their skin wouldn't matter if you can hold them up and say, "They wrote XX episode of XX show that you loved."
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Old 05-24-2018, 11:39 AM   #28
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I think the second that you start telling everyone how "diverse" your casting is or how "diverse" that your writing staff is as a selling point, it is almost certainly going to suck because it becomes obvious at that point that you didn't choose your staff based on their talent, but based on the fact that they fit some diversity checklist.

It's actually kinda racist, because now you are saying that people can't get the job if they are a white male. Telling someone you can't get a job because you are white is racist, telling someone they can't get a job because of their sex is sexist.

The left has become everything they claim to hate.

I'm certainly interested in this show because it's Watchmen and because it's on HBO so I know they don't have to pull any punches, but they really lept off on the wrong foot by bragging about diversity instead of bragging about talent.

You want to impress me, tell me which award-winning shows or award-winning novels your writing staff has written and then I'll be impressed. The color of their skin wouldn't matter if you can hold them up and say, "They wrote XX episode of XX show that you loved."
The left are the party of racism, they always have been. Just look at Jizzy and what he says. You don't get more racist than that shit.
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Old 05-24-2018, 03:37 PM   #29
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Silk Spectre 2 is massively important to the story of Watchmen. She's basically the link between the inhuman Dr. Manhattan and us. She's also vital to how he interacts with the story and how his arc comes about. Now I'm sure that you might think that she's just a tool for Dr. Manhattan but I would argue that it's the other way around. We view the whole story mostly through her and Dreiberg.

As for writing being subjective, you're right. I guess we do disagree. But are you basically saying that a writer's abilities as a wordsmith don't matter and that only the perspective of that writer matters?
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Old 05-24-2018, 11:38 PM   #30
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The problem with what you are saying is that a “good watchmen” work is an impossibility to define. What is good to one is not necessarily good to another.
No it isn't. There's a massive audience of fans out there who have agreed on what is and isn't good when it comes to the watchmen.

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There are many women who dont like traditionally “male” works of media not because they couldn’t, but because they dont like the way women are depicted or treated in the work.
I'm sure all them helpless women appreciate you doing all this mansplaining for them. Is there an official ceremony when you get dubbed a White Knight? Do they tap you on both shoulders with the same sword they use to neuter all soy boys?

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Seth Rogan
... has no credibility. "Neighbors" was an... uneven movie (I'm being kind) made worse because there were no grounded characters, which is apparently the role the wife was supposed to play. Without that comparison the movie spins out of control. I don't know how worse it was before Seth's great big idea made it "better".

Is it more accessible because the wife turns out to be just as snarky, immature, inept, and idiotic a person as Seth Rogan? I guess it is possible women are like that though the science says they are likely LESS like this.

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Diversity makes things better because the WORLD is diverse. Reality is diverse. No one person understands or can qualify the realities of the universe because they have limited perspective. This is relevant to corporations because it allows them to do businesss with a more broad spectrum of consumers. It’s relevant to culture because it moves culture in the direction of greater understanding of a more broad spectrum of life and society. Diversity increases empathy and constructive solutions to human problems. And diversity is important to art because, frankly, it helps avoid people looking like utter fools.
You spouted that off like it was copy/pasted from some paphlet written in the 00's.

Only a tool doesn't see the nuance in diversity done properly and the diversity being espoused by you and this jackass running the Watchman effort.

Y'all seem to think that you have to choose between diversity or meritocracy. If you feel like that you are asking the wrong questions or looking for the wrong things. If you feel stuck with that choice then it's because your company or policies are being impacted by operators trying to force diversity and equality of outcome instead of meritocracy and equality of opportunity.

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Believe it or not, American culture is FULL of similar nonsense where a tiny bit of diversity on the development team for a project could save the project from perpetuating not just offensive content, but many times outright lies and untruths.
You are confusing "research" with "diversity". That story was not about "diversity" in the way you want to define it. These are "gotchas" about working in a global environment and doing your research. First with localization and globalization (or I18N if that's your bag) and geopolitical strategy and making sure you didn't screw up translations and were "sensitive" to cultural shifts so you didn't put a picture of the Koran on a floor somewhere.

You are abusing the word "diversity" to make it fit the moral of the story by implying only someone FROM that background can inform of those things which is patently false. You might argue someone from the background might be a better source (the "Wise Latina" SCOTUS decision, if you will) but it is a case that has to be made convincingly.

Until then, shame on you for using your privilege to presume to speak in defense of all these people.
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Old 05-25-2018, 07:42 AM   #31
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It takes a lot of white privilege to try to mainsplain diversity to a forum full of diverse people.
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Old 05-25-2018, 09:28 AM   #32
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I'm sure all them helpless women appreciate you doing all this mansplaining for them. Is there an official ceremony when you get dubbed a White Knight? Do they tap you on both shoulders with the same sword they use to neuter all soy boys?
Apparently you're too big of an idiot to understand the difference between me saying what *I* believe and me explaining someone else's point of view.

If you can't explain your opponents argument, or indeed anyone else's argument, and the logic it stands upon, then you are someone who does too much talking and not enough listening.
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Old 05-25-2018, 06:37 PM   #33
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Apparently you're too big of an idiot to understand the difference between me saying what *I* believe and me explaining someone else's point of view.

If you can't explain your opponents argument, or indeed anyone else's argument, and the logic it stands upon, then you are someone who does too much talking and not enough listening.
You sure do talk a lot. Usually championing things which make no sense and often for groups which never asked for you to hold their favor as you take up arms for them.

You assume I can't understand the argument. Lack of agreement doesn't mean lack of understanding. It could just be the argument is flawed or the logic doesn't stand up to scrutiny, like the one many put forth about how "diversity makes us stronger" or "to do business in a global world you need to be diverse in your employees" and blah blah blah.

It is provable bullshit or globalization wouldn't have been able to work. After all all this awesomeness is taking place thanks to companies managed almost exclusively by power hungry, competitive european and asian men or women who share the same traits as power hungry, competitive european and asian men (which is extremely rare among females).

In fact, I wonder if pandering to diversity couldn't be proven to have actually COST companies more money than they've made. After all, when you're paying millions a year in salaries for Diversity Staff and Hires you'd better be making that back in some real objective and measurable way and companies were opening markets long before they had diversity quotas and so on. The question is are they cracking open markets faster and cheaper while making fewer faux paus now that they supposedly have cultural experts.
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Old 05-25-2018, 11:41 PM   #34
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It is provable bullshit or globalization wouldn't have been able to work.
Please support this, because that's the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

Globalization isn't a "plan". Globalization is an economic reality.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/de...alization.html

You know how you call up tech support for your new... I don't know... refrigerator and the person who answers the phone is in India? Or how you buy t-shirts made in Vietnam? That's globalization. Why did it happen? Because it's cheaper for manufacturers to get labor overseas than it is to get labor done locally? Why? Because the prices of shipping have gone down and the price of labor is cheaper in other countries than in the states. Why? Because of manipulation of the global market. The currency of an affluent country goes farther in a developing economy than it does in a mature of advanced economy. Similarly, the standard of life is lower and people are more willing to work for less money and under worse conditions.

The only way to make that go away is to tell companies that they CANNOT game the market and that they MUST do business in a nationalistic way. That's socialism.
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Old 05-26-2018, 02:06 AM   #35
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Please support this, because that's the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

Globalization isn't a "plan". Globalization is an economic reality.
You moron. You were the one who brought globalization and economics into this by saying if people wanted to buy and sell to other countries they had to be "woke".

Globalization goes hand in hand with this diversity shit you and your ilk peddle. Research is just as good as wasting money on diversity. Did Gregory Goodwin Pincus need to have a diverse group of women on his team to develop the Birth Control Pill? No, but he had to make sure to include a diverse set in his research.

Did Chevy need to have a diverse set of Latin-x employees on the Nova team (assuming the Nova story was true)? No, they just needed a few focus groups in Latin America who could tell them what they thought of various names.

RESEARCH.
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Old 05-26-2018, 07:39 AM   #36
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None of this talk about globalization or diversity is going to save this series from being shit if they picked their writers for fitting diversity checkboxes instead of their talent.

That is what it comes down to. I see all the time that writer N.K. Jemison is getting picked for awards left and right, but her books don’t sell and I’ve read a little bit of one of them and it was crap. They can pretend she is good all they want because of her race, but it won’t turn her into a talented author and they will end up dumping her in the near future because her books don’t sell. So, they get to pat themselves on the back for giving an award to a diverse author, but you watch how quick they will drop her.
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Old 05-26-2018, 10:22 AM   #37
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I just wanted you to know that your response got a legitimate laugh out of me on a fairly rough day.

Thank you.
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Old 05-26-2018, 11:17 AM   #38
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That's socialism.
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Old 05-26-2018, 02:26 PM   #39
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None of this talk about globalization or diversity is going to save this series from being shit if they picked their writers for fitting diversity checkboxes instead of their talent.

That is what it comes down to. I see all the time that writer N.K. Jemison is getting picked for awards left and right, but her books donít sell and Iíve read a little bit of one of them and it was crap. They can pretend she is good all they want because of her race, but it wonít turn her into a talented author and they will end up dumping her in the near future because her books donít sell. So, they get to pat themselves on the back for giving an award to a diverse author, but you watch how quick they will drop her.
As an author I am sure you are familiar with the origin of the Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies for the Hugo awards.

Many of these "professionals" would rather let an award rot than elevate someone not diverse enough or not politically correct enough. That is the level of insanity we're dealing with here!

These are the people deciding on who is staffing the writers room and cooing about how diverse it it. These are the people who hire Ta-Nehisi Coates to write a Black Panther series spending good money after bad trying to be "Diverse".

They don't just pick stuff because it is good; the way it used to work.

And they do it over and over and over hoping against hope that one of their diversity hires justifies the multitude of waste in the other hires.

"Please Lord," they pray. "Please let me find the ONE diamond in the rough out of this freshman class of 50 DACA and angry affirmative action kids. Just one that doesn't wash out, just one that turns out to be Magna Cum Laude, and says it was thanks to the diversity on the campus which did it so my hundreds of millions of dollars was justified!"

Or in this case "Please let us get at least two seasons and win at least one Emmy for writing! That will let me stuff it back in these asshole's face!"

INSANITY!
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Old 05-27-2018, 12:04 PM   #40
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You moron. You were the one who brought globalization and economics into this by saying if people wanted to buy and sell to other countries they had to be "woke".

Globalization goes hand in hand with this diversity shit you and your ilk peddle. Research is just as good as wasting money on diversity. Did Gregory Goodwin Pincus need to have a diverse group of women on his team to develop the Birth Control Pill? No, but he had to make sure to include a diverse set in his research.

Did Chevy need to have a diverse set of Latin-x employees on the Nova team (assuming the Nova story was true)? No, they just needed a few focus groups in Latin America who could tell them what they thought of various names.

RESEARCH.
Ugh.

You're the worst kind of stupid, which is so stupid you don't even KNOW how stupid you are.

I'll leave it at this: Is it more likely that all these companies are spending money on diversity and representing diversity because of "SJW"s, or because they actually see a monetary benefit from doing so? These are corporations. They don't do ANYTHING that doesn't benefit them financially.
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