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Old 06-17-2017, 07:40 PM   #21
LostToys
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Originally Posted by JazGalaxy View Post
The problem with this false equivalency is that Nintendos games aren't "aimed at kids". A few elites gamers look, at it and say "That's for kids". But there is no empirical truth to that statement. It's a judgement that exists only in their head.
Games like Ypshi's Wooly World and Kirby's Epic Yarn are definitely aimed at children because the games are streamlined and there are no fail states. That doesn't mean that adults can't find these games fun to play, just like adults can often go into a G or PG film and still be entertained, but it does not stop the fact from being that the games are designed to be played by some of the lower age brackets, and enjoyed by all.
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Old 06-18-2017, 04:06 AM   #22
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Games like Ypshi's Wooly World and Kirby's Epic Yarn are definitely aimed at children because the games are streamlined and there are no fail states. That doesn't mean that adults can't find these games fun to play, just like adults can often go into a G or PG film and still be entertained, but it does not stop the fact from being that the games are designed to be played by some of the lower age brackets, and enjoyed by all.
You're just making stuff up.

"...are definitely aimed at children because the games are streamlined and there are no fail states".

You have made up the association between no fail states and children. There is absolutely nothing to back this up. Not only children want "no fail states", and not all children want "no fail states". Some children respond to no fail states. Some adults respond to no fail states. Some children like fail states. Some adults like fail states.

I can't tell you how many podcasts I listen to where grown adults who have played games their entire lives lament fail states and say that no game should have them. I also can't tell you how many people I've met in my life who find video games anxiety-inducing because they don't like the concept of being able to fail. I recall having to set Rock Band to "no fail mode" so that some of my friends would participate. Failing, in short, was no fun to them.

I'm the completely opposite. I won't play a game unless I can fail. I've been that way ever since I was a kid, and the idea of challenge is what drew me to gaming in the first place.

So we cannot say that Kirby and Yoshi are for children just because they are series that are aimed for less experienced gamers.

My understanding of the Nintendo platforming tier is that Kirby is the easiest and most welcoming for new players. Yoshi is slightly more difficult, but still welcoming. Mario is slightly more difficult and for the widest number of players. Donkey Kong is the hardest and for the most experienced players. Those players could be anyone. Male or female. Young or old.
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Old 06-18-2017, 05:07 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by LostToys View Post
Games like Ypshi's Wooly World and Kirby's Epic Yarn are definitely aimed at children because the games are streamlined and there are no fail states. That doesn't mean that adults can't find these games fun to play, just like adults can often go into a G or PG film and still be entertained, but it does not stop the fact from being that the games are designed to be played by some of the lower age brackets, and enjoyed by all.
Just not sure about that, LostToys. I've played so many "adult" games that had virtually 0 consequence for death or perceived failure aside from having to suffer a loading screen. That just seems like an industry directional thing. When I was a kid, maybe about 5-6, I played NES games. Almost all of them had "hard fails". Failure was a gameover screen and starting all over. Almost all games were like that. You could even use Donkey Kong and Mario as examples, but that extended to games based on popular cartoons, and on and on. Almost all NES games I played were "hard fails".

Now a lot of games (both kid friendly and adult) don't have any "fail states" at all. Consequences are mostly reloading a 20 second old saved state or checkpoint.

What I think Nintendo does extremely well as a developer is offer a multi-layered challenge to their games, including games like Yoshi and Mario. To get through the main story is often relatively easy, but they usually have side objectives that push more "hardcore" gamers. Collecting things that require precise timing and execution, or bonus levels that offer more challenge. For example Super Mario 3D World is relatively easy to beat. Beating the bonus levels and collecting all 3 green stars on every level however, is not very easy at all.

It's that kind of development, where multiple layers of difficulty are baked right into the game (without even having to select a difficulty level) that I really like. My son can play the game with challenge, and I can play the game with challenge, shooting for the more difficult tasks, in an environment with smooth and fun gameplay. That's the other part I enjoy. Nintendo's games are very gameplay-centric. As a working dad with a bout 1/20th the time I used to have for my hobby, I now more than ever appreciate games that are gameplay-centric and high on fun-factor. That's really honestly mostly all I care about. Those features being skinned into a colorful cardboard Yoshi land doesn't bother me at all. Fun/gameplay. That's what I want. I only have so much time to play.
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Old 06-18-2017, 11:35 AM   #24
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I believe you're all overthinking it. In a perfect world, we'd rate games for the gameplay's sake. But not many people do this, just like not many people rate movies by their depth, implications or character development. They see a film like "Spirited Away" and say: "The protagonist is a little girl, everything's very colorful - that's kids' stuff!" Take away the colors, add sex and/or violence, and they'll say: "I wouldn't show this to my kid - that's mature stuff", even if the story is a straight-forward power fantasy (Marvel), about black-or-white justice (DC) or simply nonsense (porn).

We all judge things by looking at them (and I dare anyone here who is without sin to cast the first stone against this claim). If you look at more or less everything Nintendo has developed since "Twilight Princess", what do you see? Bright colors and - more often than not - ridiculous excuses for stories (abducted prince/princess, kingdom in peril, let's race/fight/compete for no reason), mostly set in non-threatening environments*. That IS kids' stuff.

It doesn't matter that adults can enjoy it, too. Who am I to tell you what to spend your time on? I loved "LocoRoco 2", but many "core" gamers wouldn't even give it a chance due to its looks and sounds.

Were where we? Ah yes, "Xenoblade Chronicles 2". I'll almost certainly buy a Xenoblade game when I get a Switch or - more likely at the moment - a Wii U. For this one, they even streamlined the character design... whether you like it or not.

*) Again, it's not about the gameplay threat or challenge. Yoshi's Wooly World is simply not as harrowing as a cave in Tomb Raider.
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Old 06-18-2017, 04:58 PM   #25
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You're just making stuff up.
So I am making stuff up because I have an opinion that the two games (among others) I mentioned are designed for Children but they can be enjoyed by Adults based on several factors such as no fail states, game aesthetics designed to remind the player of their childhood (ex. Yoshi being wooly - ie a stuff animal - and Kirby using soft colorful fabrics - something you might have snuggled up to or played with as a kid), and a co-op designed for someone of low-skill to still be helpful to their partner (ex. the second player does not actually play with the main player, but controls a secondary character that can do things like pick up items or temporarily stun enemies)?

Again, just because the game is geared towards children does not meant that the game is not good, does not have depth, or is not also for adults.
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Old 06-18-2017, 11:47 PM   #26
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So I am making stuff up because I have an opinion that the two games (among others) I mentioned are designed for Children but they can be enjoyed by Adults based on several factors such as no fail states, game aesthetics designed to remind the player of their childhood (ex. Yoshi being wooly - ie a stuff animal - and Kirby using soft colorful fabrics - something you might have snuggled up to or played with as a kid), and a co-op designed for someone of low-skill to still be helpful to their partner (ex. the second player does not actually play with the main player, but controls a secondary character that can do things like pick up items or temporarily stun enemies)?

Again, just because the game is geared towards children does not meant that the game is not good, does not have depth, or is not also for adults.
Well, no, you are making stuff up because you keep saying that Yoshi and Kirby are "geared toward children" and then using a bunch of completely random and subjective points that you are making up in order to prove your point. Many of which are objectively false.

The only reasonable thing you can say is "I don't like the look of Kirby or Yoshi". That is a perfectly fine opinion.

But you are adding in the element about "...because it's childish" in order to mitigate your opinion and add in an element of suggesting that you are more "mature" and sophisticated than other adult gamers who like those games.

I get it. I can't help but feel superior to people who like Metal Gear Solid. But that's a personal opinion that has no merit outside my own head. I can't go around pretending that's a fact.

Yoshi and Kirby are Japanese games developed by Japanese people. In Japan, there is no such association between "adulthood" and "dark" or "macho". They make those games for people who want to play those games. And I don't think many people would argue with the idea that many adult women would be more interested in playing Yoshi's Wooly World than, say, God of War. So are they less "adult" or less "mature" because they don't want to play they power/sex fantasy of a middle aged man?

All I'm arguing against is the concept of using personal taste and personal cultural beliefs as supposedly empirical facts that the rest of the world should simply accept.
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:30 AM   #27
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I don't like the childish looking anime art style here. It looks like 10 year olds in battle. I preferred the more mature theme of the characters in the first Xenoblade Chronicles X. Will pass on this one, as an older gamer, I have a hard time trying to immerse myself in this fiction.
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:08 AM   #28
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Well, no, you are making stuff up because you keep saying that Yoshi and Kirby are "geared toward children" and then using a bunch of completely random and subjective points that you are making up in order to prove your point. Many of which are objectively false.

The only reasonable thing you can say is "I don't like the look of Kirby or Yoshi". That is a perfectly fine opinion.
When did I ever say this? I never said anything about not liking the aesthetic. All I am pointing out is that the aesthetic for these two games are designed for children. It is like saying that Candy Crush Saga is designed for Women. That was its designed base. There is nothing wrong with that, much like there is nothing wrong with you enjoying it.

Quote:
But you are adding in the element about "...because it's childish" in order to mitigate your opinion and add in an element of suggesting that you are more "mature" and sophisticated than other adult gamers who like those games.
When did I suggest I was more mature and sophisticated for the game? I have been stating, several times in fact, that just because the game has a target audience of children, it does not mean that the mechanics, story and other elements do not offer tangible challenges.
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Old 06-19-2017, 01:25 PM   #29
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When did I suggest I was more mature and sophisticated for the game? I have been stating, several times in fact, that just because the game has a target audience of children, it does not mean that the mechanics, story and other elements do not offer tangible challenges.
Maybe some are insecure about their tastes that anything stating the truth about the things they like is taken as an insult. In this case being made for children in mind is seen as an offense that will not be tolerated.

These games are made with children in mind, that is a fact. If you find this truth offensive then maybe there is some issues you have to deal with.



Seems Nintendo (treehouse) is all to eager to butcher this game for everybody.
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Old 06-19-2017, 01:33 PM   #30
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That is how I feel. Just own the fact that you enjoying it. Nothing else matters. I know the deep down feeling of wanting to be defensive about something that you love and enjoy, but I've learned to just not bother if you feel the other person being rude and condescending. But if they are showing an actual interest, then keep the conversation going.
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Old 06-19-2017, 01:34 PM   #31
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Here are two problems i had with Xenoblade 1.

The text was too small for my 55 in TV. Even pulling the recliner up to the TV.
The names of item. Root bar dingle arm? Turbo encabulator? Get the fuck outta here with that shit. Name the goddam item in a way so it makes sense as to what they do.

Part 2 is looking like a more streamlined, concise game. Will buy.
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Old 06-20-2017, 12:54 AM   #32
JazGalaxy
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Maybe some are insecure about their tastes that anything stating the truth about the things they like is taken as an insult.
I find his, and now your, statements to be offensive to logic and reason more than I do personally offensive to my taste in games.

It is simply NOT a "fact" that these games are "made with children in mind". If you really continue to maintain this, then you DO NOT KNOW WHAT A FACT IS.

These games, as Nintendo continually says, are made for EVERYONE in mind. Children and adults. That does not make them "for children". It does not make them "focused on children". They are simply inoffensive games. They are made for women. They are made for girls. They are made for boys. They are made for men.

MEN buy Yoshi's Wooly World. MEN by Kirby.

To continue to say that they are games made for children is to admit that you have mental delusions and cannot separate actual FACTS from your personal opinions.
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Old 06-20-2017, 01:42 AM   #33
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They are made for the lowest common denominator, which in this case is children. They are made with children in mind. Man you are triggered by this.
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Old 06-20-2017, 02:48 AM   #34
JazGalaxy
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They are made for the lowest common denominator, which in this case is children. They are made with children in mind. Man you are triggered by this.
...the hell?

You people are utter idiots. This sentence is so full of stupidity that I can't even parse it.

Children are the "lowest common denominator", now? A game that is inoffensive is now "low" art?

You really CAN'T separate your opinions from facts can you? This is staggering.
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