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Old 11-23-2014, 11:47 PM   #61
VenomUSMC
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Originally Posted by Anenome View Post
In a COLA, obligations require consent.

The state never requires consent before forcing it's laws on you.

You continue to fundamentally fail to understand the concept.
You've consented by living in the states roughly 2 decades as an adult. You've consented by utilizing tools of the state despite claiming they were created via theft - either you're complicit to that theft, don't actually believe it, or you simply don't count your own wrongs (the most likely).

It's like being born in a COLA, crying that you hate the COLA, and then not leaving, and all while using the tools of the COLA. This was explained to you. You'd tell that person to go find a COLA they liked.

Thanks for making it clear you don't live up to anything you say.
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Many cultures of the world marry girls off after their first menses, around 13 years old. I can't say that's inherently immoral, no.
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Old 11-23-2014, 11:52 PM   #62
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You've consented by living in the states roughly 2 decades as an adult.
Why can't I show up at your door and tell you you've consented to pay me 20% of your income yearly because you continue to live where you do. What could be wrong with that?

In short, why do you imagine the state has powers no one else does. No one else can hold me to an obligation unless I give prior agreement. The government can't do it either, not ethically anyway.

Quote:
It's like being born in a COLA
Rules without agreement would only apply to children because they're under their parents' agreement. Upon becoming an adult they'd have to also agree or else leave.
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Old 11-24-2014, 03:15 AM   #63
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See this is your misinterpretation of my position, your not really understanding where I'm coming from.

If I oppose some republican policy or foible, you think I'm supporting liberals. If I cast doubt on repub strategy, you think I'm supporting liberals. I'm not. I'm critical of republicans because I used to be one. Because it's so clear to me where they go wrong now, which results in their ineffectiveness.

If I strip political concerns and strategic concerns, and thoughts of political power or how win elections, from the immigration issue I'm left only with the thought that they would be far better off in the US. Everyone world.

Naturally if you believe in democracy and the existing system this threatens you. But I want to see the existing system fall, democracy is evil, and immigration pressure helps stress the existing evil system.

It's funny how immigration is a non-issue in a polycentric-law society. Just like health-care is a non-issue in a polycentric law system. In fact, every complaint you have about democrats is mitigated in a polycentric-law system, yet you're irrationally opposed to it :P

But w/e dude, keep fighting the good republican fight, useless as it may be.
I very much understand where you're coming from, which is where the comment stems from. You're again so dishonest, that you can't even see when you're contradicting yourself. You continually excused Bean, a totalitarian liberal, applauded him for deceiving church children under his watch. Claimed again that a authoritarian liberal was some how a libertarian time and time again. And when this was pointed out to you rather than admit, "Shit I fucked up" we get some meme's or some random link instead.

This is your major flaw, you can't admit when you've been caught talking out of your ass. You expect people to just respect what you're saying despite changing what you're saying on a regular basis. Respect is not given, it's earned, you've done very little to earn anyone's respect. In fact due to your constant contradictions you've done mostly the opposite.

For someone who wishes the system to fail and everyone in it obviously affected by that, yet hasn't left for his own selfish reasons of apparently having no where to go despite having options. Yet you have the balls to claim how righteous you are on a regular basis. You would see people's lives destroyed simply because you hate the US, yet won't leave it. It's an incredibly self centered and assholish view point to have and keep hammering at.

You're also obviously drunk with the idea of having power, despite claiming otherwise. Again by the things you say, your wishes to "liberate people under armed guard" against a countries' wishes is a great example of that.

In other words you are very much like the liberals of today, you think you're right despite tons of evidence to the contrary, spout your opinion as absolute unchallengeable fact, and refuse to take any sort of criticism. You're also likely narcissistic, which would be another thing you share in common with Mr Obama.
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Old 11-24-2014, 12:30 PM   #64
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Why can't I show up at your door and tell you you've consented to pay me 20% of your income yearly because you continue to live where you do. What could be wrong with that?

In short, why do you imagine the state has powers no one else does. No one else can hold me to an obligation unless I give prior agreement. The government can't do it either, not ethically anyway.
You have given prior agreement. You've made the voluntary choice to stay. You've made the voluntary choice to use various institutions that were by no means forced (see: a state university).

If this is ethically wrong, you're also ethically wrong - possibly more so, as you were screaming how terrible this all was while being all too happy to join in in what you deemed "theft."

When a person enters a COLA, that person is supposed to be subject to those laws established there. Per you, that person would be forcible removed by the governing authority. You'll likely just declare that anything owned by the government is unethical, conflating your opinion with fact.

Simply, your parents consented for you per your own beliefs. When you became an adult, you consented by staying in the United States for two decades, and as you continue to live here. If you live in a COLA sea city and reached whatever age equated to adulthood and you stayed for 20 years after reaching adulthood, you're consenting to those laws. Meaning if that COLA says they can come take 20% of your income per their laws, you've consented to that ability. This is especially true since you were ticking and screaming about this theft as you went to a state operated University.

Is there no place that actually exists in the world that offers a more attractive situation and set of laws in your eyes outside of the United States?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Anenome
Rules without agreement would only apply to children because they're under their parents' agreement. Upon becoming an adult they'd have to also agree or else leave.
This is also silly given your supposed stance regarding laws being by consent. Here you are applying a umbrella law to those that have not consented. Other cultures see children far differently, often seeing adulthood far differently. In fact, even the United States has slightly differing views on when those that are not considered adults gain certain rights. Here you're arguing that children are a "special case" without regard to anyone consenting. This means that your "special case" will govern the way that COLAs can be written, taking away consent.


Again, you're arguing that everyone chooses their own laws until you want to make some absolute laws that do not require consent. You'll claim how it's morally despicable to think otherwise about the children, which is based upon same orientalist views you always bring into this. While I may agree it's wrong to take advantage of children, something you oddly enough had zero problem with to spread your views of sex ed. under false premises, that's largely based on our culture in certain ways. It, more importantly, is the removal of the foundation of your fantasy society - voluntarism.

You've already begun the slow creep of forcing your views onto people - views which are debatable by your own advocacy.

Lets make a scenario that is likely to happen:
A group of families voluntary, without any force, sends their children to an educational program. This program is paid for by these families and those holding the same beliefs. The parents consented to a certain known educational program. However, unbeknownst to both this institution and the parents, their children will receive an entirely different set of instruction that certainly does not adhere to the program these parents consented to. Why? A single individual lied in order to gain access to these children to simply teach what that single person believed, without consent.

Now this, of course, did happen. You were giddy to support the individual that was willing to infiltrate this organization in order to teach children their views versus what the parents and organization consented to. Why? You simply agreed with that one person - ignoring your special protection of children which leaves their ability to consent to their parents (whom had not in this situation), and endorsed it all because it was the instructions that you liked.
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Many cultures of the world marry girls off after their first menses, around 13 years old. I can't say that's inherently immoral, no.
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Old 11-24-2014, 01:19 PM   #65
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You have given prior agreement. You've made the voluntary choice to stay.
This is completely illogical. But unsurprising, it's the kind of statist logic I run into all the time.

Name any other agreement that works in this fashion. It would be laughed out of court.

The simple fact is that this is the only rationale you're left with because you're unwilling to admit to yourself that the state is illegitimate.

But I enjoy seeing you twist in the wind trying.
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Old 11-24-2014, 01:28 PM   #66
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I very much understand where you're coming from, which is where the comment stems from. You're again so dishonest, that you can't even see when you're contradicting yourself. You continually excused Bean, a totalitarian liberal, applauded him for deceiving church children under his watch. Claimed again that a authoritarian liberal was some how a libertarian time and time again. And when this was pointed out to you rather than admit, "Shit I fucked up" we get some meme's or some random link instead...
It's very easily to be misunderstood or find apparent contradictions when talking about social structures no one has any experience with, especially when it's being questioned by people who don't understand the full idea of it and are importing their concept of how current societies work.

Also, there's the problem that a polycentric law society isn't a set of policy proposals, even though you guys have tended to treat it as if it were. Because I have been proposing how I would setup a society within the larger rubric of a protocol for law.

There must be kept in mind the divide between what's possible, and what I'm personally proposing.

So when I toss out three solutions for a problem, it's meant to reflect that polycentric law isn't a single proposal, it's a protocol in which multiple solutions to any one problem can be built. It's essentially a programming language for law.

Beyond that, your comment assumes you/my opponents are right about everything, laughably, even when they claim to know what I meant when I said something, and even when I offer clarification. For instance, if you think I am not telling the truth about Terran's sig quote, if you think Terran isn't merely exposing himself as a gaslighter by his quote, then you believe that Terran is more an authority about what I said and mean than I am. Which is not the case.

It would be nothing at all for me to admit to being wrong about "moving to Blueseed" and simply go one from there because they didn't actually launch, how does admitting that hurt me in the slightest? I have no idea. What I object to is the lie that is his quote in an obvious gaslight.

You're wrong though, I've admitted being wrong before, it's not something I've never done. But I'm not wrong about my own idea, nor about what I meant by what I said.

Which is the larger problem. People like you continue to focus on me, because you don't like the message. You know who does that? Liberals. They go straight for character assassination, and all you've done is prove you're as bad as they are. As for me, I don't really care what you think about me personally.

Furthermore this is an area of invention, and multiple solutions can be come up with. So when someone tosses out a challenge and I say X or Y, and it's different from A of B I'd said previously, it may be because X or Y are newer, more refined versions of the concept in light of challenges from debate participants. Suddenly this is "going back on what you said" or "being unwilling to admit you're wrong." There have been a couple challenges that have made me think and develop further ideas. Those were productive discussions. But most of it has been useless quibbling.

See the problem here is that you, Venom, and Terran are simply trying to toss out "gotchas" to defeat my idea. However you're only ever attacking my current conception of the kind of society I would set up for myself. None of you have ever attacked the fact that polycentric law is a protocol for law. Because this is largely unassailable.

I've said before that whatever problem could be imagined in advance can be mitigated through law. So if you toss out some new challenge I've never heard before, it helps me see a new area that needs to be developed conceptually.

You think you've hurt me or lost respect for me? Hah, you've only helped me refine an idea. Thanks for that.

You can think what you want, in the meantime I'm building seasteads, both conceptually and physically.
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Old 11-24-2014, 01:30 PM   #67
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This is completely illogical. But unsurprising, it's the kind of statist logic I run into all the time.

Name any other agreement that works in this fashion. It would be laughed out of court.

The simple fact is that this is the only rationale you're left with because you're unwilling to admit to yourself that the state is illegitimate.

But I enjoy seeing you twist in the wind trying.
What's illogical is kicking and screaming about the horrors of the state's "theft" and then voluntary rushing to utilize the results of that "theft."

You have voluntarily stayed as a legal adult for 20 years... good luck crying victim. Take your own advice that you tell those in your COLA fantasies - leave.

Your argument of "well, I've lived here 20 years as an adult... but that's not consent despite having voluntarily utilized the creations of the state" would get laughed out of court.

Is the state forcing you to stay? Is there no place that actually exists in the world that offers a more attractive situation and set of laws in your eyes outside of the United States?
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Many cultures of the world marry girls off after their first menses, around 13 years old. I can't say that's inherently immoral, no.
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Old 11-24-2014, 01:40 PM   #68
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What's illogical is kicking and screaming about the horrors of the state's "theft" and then voluntary rushing to utilize the results of that "theft."
A thief is still a thief if they wash your windows before they leave with your jewels. This is the stupidest argument in the world.

Quote:
You have voluntarily stayed as a legal adult for 20 years...
And if there were a non-state place to go to, that would mean something. Also, no other instances of prior consent work this way, because it's not prior consent at all and you know it. It is assumed consent, which is completely unethical.

Under this definition of consent, Jews consented to be sent to the FUCKING GAS CHAMBERS because they stayed in Germany. FUCK YOU, think again you goddamn MORON. Have some actual principles for once in your life! The state is an illegitimate bastard and you're making excuses for its tyranny!
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Old 11-24-2014, 01:43 PM   #69
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You think you've hurt me or lost respect for me? Hah, you've only helped me refine an idea. Thanks for that.
Which implies a wrongness for your own idea by requiring change through refinement, contradicting:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anenome
You're wrong though, I've admitted being wrong before, it's not something I've never done. But I'm not wrong about my own idea, nor about what I meant by what I said.
Especially funny since your hubris has you claiming to be right at every turn - even in the face of fellow ancaps. You claim your ideas are "right," but now you're saying your refining them. That means something was wrong about those ideas.... ready for you to whine about no system is perfect.

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Originally Posted by Anenome
It is hawkish. We plan to one day liberate entire people groups from nation states if we gather that kind of power.
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Originally Posted by Anenome
Ancaps don't wield power.
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Originally Posted by Anenome
A libertarian, especially an ancap, is against power to their core. It's a laughable accusation.
Odd that you're talking about ancaps gather power to wield when you say ancaps don't wield power and are against power "to their core."

Words, they're meaningless with you.
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Many cultures of the world marry girls off after their first menses, around 13 years old. I can't say that's inherently immoral, no.
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Old 11-24-2014, 01:51 PM   #70
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A thief is still a thief if they wash your windows before they leave with your jewels. This is the stupidest argument in the world.
And you're apparently happy to be complicit with that theft. That makes you a thief as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anenome
And if there were a non-state place to go to, that would mean something. Also, no other instances of prior consent work this way, because it's not prior consent at all and you know it. It is assumed consent, which is completely unethical.
There are non-state places to go. This has been shown to you multiple times. Ignoring it doesn't magically make that fact disappear. A man was claiming land as of July of 2014... that's this year. There is prior consent, you decided to not leave as soon as you became a legal adult. It's not merely assumed consent, you're visibly and voluntarily utilizing the creations of the state. Did those tyrannical statists come and put you on a cattle car at gun point and make you go to their university? Nope. Somehow you found yourself at that a state university, despite the lack of force and your so-called principles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anenome
Under this definition of consent, Jews consented to be sent to the FUCKING GAS CHAMBERS because they stayed in Germany. FUCK YOU, think again you goddamn MORON. Have some actual principles for once in your life! The state is an illegitimate bastard and you're making excuses for its tyranny!
The state did not allow the Jews to leave. Were those persecuted by the Nazis allowed to simply go online, buy a ticket, and leave? Nope. Are you able to do that? Yup.

It's amazing the tyranny you faced as you strolled onto a California State University campus, largely funded by taxes. You're basically a survivor of the holocaust by getting an English lit degree. If you think the state is an illegitimate bastard, why do you voluntarily utilize tools of the state that are easily avoidable?
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Old 11-24-2014, 01:57 PM   #71
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Oh my God is he really comparing himself to the Jews facing the gas chamber in Nazi Germany? Fucking really? Holy shitballs batman. If you hate the US so fucking much Anenome it's simple, fucking leave you useless twat.
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Old 11-24-2014, 02:12 PM   #72
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Oh my God is he really comparing himself to the Jews facing the gas chamber in Nazi Germany? Fucking really? Holy shitballs batman. If you hate the US so fucking much Anenome it's simple, fucking leave you useless twat.
Well, it's important to remember Anenome is a bit loose with his words.

By "gas chamber" he means "state university's classroom".

By "there is no where to go" despite some some American claiming land this year, he really means "there is no place with all the luxuries that I want."

Anenome has stated he chooses to remain in California, despite its increased tax burden and all that, because he believes it'll help him with his seasteading dreams.

Also:
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Originally Posted by Anenome
I walk back on nothing. Quit ignoring what I already said.
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Old 11-24-2014, 02:36 PM   #73
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Upon becoming an adult they'd have to also agree or else leave.
LOL. We keep telling illegal immigrants that (follow the immigration rules) and it doesn't work too well. I'd like to see you use this line of reasoning with a squatter on your property.

Quote:
And if there were a non-state place to go to, that would mean something.
Quit with the bullshit, please. There are several 'non-state' places to go around the world. Pick one and tread carefully. Lacking a state tends to make a region...volatile.
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Old 11-24-2014, 03:12 PM   #74
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Oh my God is he really comparing himself to the Jews facing the gas chamber in Nazi Germany? Fucking really? Holy shitballs batman. If you hate the US so fucking much Anenome it's simple, fucking leave you useless twat.
Learn to read, dude.
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Old 11-24-2014, 04:16 PM   #75
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Learn to read, dude.
Sound advice from the best:
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Looks pretty...and completely, hopelessly boring.

Did Polygon actually say "Actually feels like being in a war" about a GAME?

F-ING MORONS. You know what feels like being in a war, Polygon? BEING IN A WAR.
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...So, civilians in a war zone aren't... in a war? This is your thesis. Do you have a PhD in bullshit?
Well, just take Anenome at his word:
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I am committed to truth, only a commitment to power would allow one to think as you do. Shame on you.
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Originally Posted by Anenome
A libertarian, especially an ancap, is against power to their core. It's a laughable accusation.
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Originally Posted by Anenome
Ancaps don't wield power.
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Originally Posted by Anenome
It is hawkish. We plan to one day liberate entire people groups from nation states if we gather that kind of power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anenome
Sure a problem, that's why you need military power.
Maybe take your own advice, Anenome?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anenome
Have some actual principles for once in your life!
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Old 11-24-2014, 05:39 PM   #76
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Learn to read, dude.
That's the thing I read just fine, it's you that has an issue with words having meanings and keeping your story straight beyond 2 posts prior.
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Old 11-25-2014, 12:54 PM   #77
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Wow.

So let me get this -- being held in a Nazi concentration camp against your will with armed guards who are starving you and killing people at almost random.

Is the same as...

Going to a state college that you can leave at anytime, going home every night, and living in a country with pretty much open boarders.

Yeah that is the same as being fucking gassed. Get your head out of your ass.

Only someone like you could possibly consider going to college in America the same as being a Jew in Nazi Germany.

You are the problem with America. People with your attitude that think not having the iPhone 6 somehow is limiting them. These small injustices are compared to people who actually were tortured and died.

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Old 11-25-2014, 01:57 PM   #78
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Jesus, learn to read.

He said that the government has the right to tell me what to do because I gave implied consent by continuing to live here.

If a country can do anything it wants to you just because you keep living there, then under that rubric, the Jews consented to being gassed by continuing to live in Germany under the Nazis. Obviously his stance fails under that examination. States do not have the right to do ANYTHING they want just because you live there.

This is not "comparing my situation" to Jews during the holocaust, it's testing his claim of state authority against another obviously evil situation and seeing if it holds up, and it sure as hell doesn't.

This is an extremely common test in philosophy. Attacking me for applying a common test is ridiculous. Rather than defend his point, all of you have instead attacked me personally or missed the point entirely.

His logic could be extended to many more obviously ridiculous situation. Perhaps children give consent to be sexually abused by continuing to live in their parents houses. Perhaps people consent to be thieved from by continuing to live in areas with a high crime rate. Maybe Iraqis consented to be executed by continuing to stay in their houses after ISIL declared Jihad.

It's a stupid rubric. All so that he can get around the obvious fact that states have no legitimate right to rule.
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Old 11-25-2014, 02:22 PM   #79
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LOL. Anenome, Proverbs 10:19 man. Take it to heart.
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Old 11-25-2014, 02:32 PM   #80
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Jesus, learn to read.

He said that the government has the right to tell me what to do because I gave implied consent by continuing to live here.

If a country can do anything it wants to you just because you keep living there, then under that rubric, the Jews consented to being gassed by continuing to live in Germany under the Nazis. Obviously his stance fails under that examination. States do not have the right to do ANYTHING they want just because you live there.

This is not "comparing my situation" to Jews during the holocaust, it's testing his claim of state authority against another obviously evil situation and seeing if it holds up, and it sure as hell doesn't.

This is an extremely common test in philosophy. Attacking me for applying a common test is ridiculous. Rather than defend his point, all of you have instead attacked me personally or missed the point entirely.

His logic could be extended to many more obviously ridiculous situation. Perhaps children give consent to be sexually abused by continuing to live in their parents houses. Perhaps people consent to be thieved from by continuing to live in areas with a high crime rate. Maybe Iraqis consented to be executed by continuing to stay in their houses after ISIL declared Jihad.

It's a stupid rubric. All so that he can get around the obvious fact that states have no legitimate right to rule.
So leave the civilized west for some barbaric anarchist shithole like Somalia. The door is right the fuck there, no one is holding you prisoner or threatening you with the train ride to Auschwitz. Your analogy is beyond fucking flawed, it's downright insulting to people who have lost their lives simply for being Jewish. You should be ashamed of yourself but knowing you, you're likely rubbing one out about it.
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