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Old 04-25-2017, 11:08 AM   #41
Terran
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I would actually argue that race is MORE a social construct than gender is. Yet which one is identity change accepted and which one is not?

Strange indeed.
Exactly. Progressives have completely reversed reality, where a biological fact of XX/XY is a choice, and the socially constructed concept of 'race' is instead a rigidly determined category.

It's quite remarkable. Progressivism is akin to a mental illness.
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Old 04-26-2017, 07:57 AM   #42
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Many cultures of the world marry girls off after their first menses, around 13 years old. I can't say that's inherently immoral, no.
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Old 04-26-2017, 04:10 PM   #43
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Venom , you pointed out that I never answered the following, which I had interpreted as rhetorical, so here goes-

"If a 5ft 8inch woman is 90lbs soaking wet, comes up and tells you she's fat, are you going to pretend she is and recommend that she curb her diet in order to lose weight? What if someone obviously over 30 years old insisted that they're 12 years old, would you pretend they were?"

Scenario A, thin woman claims she is fat. No, I would not give her advice on losing weight.

Scenario B, I would not pretend they were under 12, but I might humor them if there were no other consequences or relevant circumstances.

I was thinking about this discussion and I realized that there is an ongoing mismatch. Some people are claiming that the transgender issue is significant because others are being punished for not "playing along", "pretending", or "participating in a fantasy."

I'm going to flat out call bullshit on this.

If somebody is punished for violating somebeody's rights or for discrimination, let's call it that, OK. If my boss wants me to call him Sally and I refuse to play along and decide to call him dipshit and I lose my job, well, that was my choice. Nobody forced me to call him something other than what he wished to be called. If one of my subordianates wants to be called Mark and I repeatedly call them Marcey, dipshit, or any other thing I can think of other than what they have respectfully asked to be called, then that's my choice.

I think it is ironic that upstream in this thread somebody said you could define liberals by something about feelings or something being "all about the feels". I may be paraphrasing, but I think that applies 100% to how some people in this thread are responding to the transgender issue. People are saying that they want their feelings about somebody else's gender identity to matter. However, the law basically says that they don't. Restrooms aside for just a minute, if the law states that you can not discriminate against someone for gender or sexual identity, then how you feel about transgender issues or gay marriage or any of that ceases to matter, and the people who seem to be getting upset about it are doing so precisely because they want their feels to matter more than they do. If you run a public bakery in an area that does not allow discrimination, and you wish to conduct business to the public, then how you feel about what somebody ought to be doing is irrelevant.

Quick example. This is not hypothetical. I run elections as a poll manager. My job is to make sure that every eligible voter votes, that their votes count, that they have a pleasant and efficient voting experience, and that they have as much assistance as I can give a in voting. Voting is their right and I am there to ensure that they can exercise that right with absolutely nothing interfering. No political discussions are allowed, no campaigning, no electioneering, etc. I am not allowed to discuss issues or candidates on the ballot. I have access to every single voter's registration. I know if they are registered as Democrats, independents, Republicans, whatever, If they are registering at the polls, then it is my job to register them in whatever party they choose. I take this shit seriously. I live in a red state. Do I have strong political beliefs? Fuck yeah I do. Do I have strong feelings about candidates and ballot issues? Every single election. But when it comes to serving the public, can I treat Republicans differently than Democrats? Does it matter how I feel about whether these people are really democrats registering as republicans or vice versa? No. My feelings do not matter and I don't pretend that they do. I have a job to do and my job has nothing to do with my feelings about the parties or the voters.

So, people can get upset about not wanting to play along or participate in somebody else's fantasy all they want, but when it becomes discrimination, that probably crosses a line.

Now, we talked about gender, but transgender issues seem to have a lot more to do with gender identity than with gender, and obviously gender identity is not exclusively controlled by chromosomes, so that seems to still be irrelevant. But again, if somebody wants to be addressed as female or as male, what business of mine is it what chromosomes or sex organs they were born with? This is not a large group of people, I don't think there is much evidence that they are causing disproportionate amounts of harm any more than any other self identified group. Not to mention the fact that it must be a tough way to go through life and I think these people deserve a break, not judgment and condemnation for their condition.

Now, back to the bathroom thing. I don't have a big issue with it, but I can understand how some people feel strongly about this. Is it based on evidence or fantasy paranoia? I don't know. Are there more transexuals spying on people in locker rooms and bathrooms than heterosexuals? I sure doubt it. But, as I said before, I am fine with providing gender neutral restrooms in public places as a compromise.
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Old 04-26-2017, 09:26 PM   #44
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Calling out men pretending to be women and vice versa for the mental illness it is, is
the logical thing to do. You make it about the feels when you pander to it, which clearly you have decided to do. For a party that claims to be the party of science, your type sure does like to change biology based on feelings, and manipulate climate data to push a political agenda. You're just as dishonest as the rest of them. It's no wonder you indentify as a progressive.
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Old 04-27-2017, 06:18 AM   #45
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So, people can get upset about not wanting to play along or participate in somebody else's fantasy all they want, but when it becomes discrimination, that probably crosses a line.
I'm calling bullshit on your post as nonsense. Reality is not discrimination, it is reality. It's only 'discrimination' now because progressives are insane.

XX or XY. That's it. For the 0.01% of folks who suffer chromosomal abnormalities, we can work with them.
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Old 04-27-2017, 08:32 AM   #46
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I was thinking about this discussion and I realized that there is an ongoing mismatch. Some people are claiming that the transgender issue is significant because others are being punished for not "playing along", "pretending", or "participating in a fantasy."

I'm going to flat out call bullshit on this.
You would think that would be the case, but unfortunately it's not. Here's a few examples that turned up with a quick google search:

Not using transgender pronouns could get you fined

University of Michigan Professors Will Face Disciplinary Action for Ignoring ‘Preferred Pronouns’

Chicago Public Schools Now Forcing Students To Use Requested Transgender Pronouns Or Face Punishment

This will escalate even further than that as well, I do not doubt.

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I think it is ironic that upstream in this thread somebody said you could define liberals by something about feelings or something being "all about the feels". I may be paraphrasing, but I think that applies 100% to how some people in this thread are responding to the transgender issue.
I'm not sure I follow. How is saying that men cannot be women about "feels"? That's actually about facts.

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People are saying that they want their feelings about somebody else's gender identity to matter. However, the law basically says that they don't. Restrooms aside for just a minute, if the law states that you can not discriminate against someone for gender or sexual identity, then how you feel about transgender issues or gay marriage or any of that ceases to matter, and the people who seem to be getting upset about it are doing so precisely because they want their feels to matter more than they do. If you run a public bakery in an area that does not allow discrimination, and you wish to conduct business to the public, then how you feel about what somebody ought to be doing is irrelevant.
So you would be OK with forcing that black baker to cater a KKK rally, or otherwise discrimination right? Or that Jewish florist to serve those guys at the local chapter of the Hitler Youth meeting? Because, you know, they are a public business and it would be discrimination if they didn't. Also, isn't forcing someone to go against their belief discrimination against religion? Why is one form of discrimination acceptable, but not another? Just because someone opens a business should not mean they have to give up their beliefs. If I open a business, it is NOT peoples right to shop there. With the case of Kim Davis, that I can see the push back because that was a government position. She should have resigned if the job no longer allowed her to practice her beliefs. But a private business? Why is government getting involved in those? Isn't that what we DON'T want?

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Quick example. This is not hypothetical. I run elections as a poll manager. My job is to make sure that every eligible voter votes, that their votes count, that they have a pleasant and efficient voting experience, and that they have as much assistance as I can give a in voting. Voting is their right and I am there to ensure that they can exercise that right with absolutely nothing interfering.
Good on you, but unfortunately that's not a very good example because that job doesn't violate any beliefs. A Christian would also have no problem with registering gay people to vote. Also, it's not a private business (see Kim Davis above).

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Now, back to the bathroom thing. I don't have a big issue with it, but I can understand how some people feel strongly about this. Is it based on evidence or fantasy paranoia? I don't know. Are there more transexuals spying on people in locker rooms and bathrooms than heterosexuals? I sure doubt it.
Would you be OK with me standing in your bathroom while your wife/gf showers? I won't peek I promise. I mean, there is no evidence that I've peeked before that's just paranoia. Also, I will identify as female if that will help. That's how a lot of people feel about transgenders doing the same thing. Also, this isn't just about bathrooms. It's about locker rooms as well.
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Old 04-27-2017, 09:30 AM   #47
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Pacer, Thanks. You made some good points. I'm going to try to address Terrans and Spectral's comments now and I will try to get to yours later today if I get a chance.
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Old 04-27-2017, 09:44 AM   #48
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1.Calling out men pretending to be women and vice versa for the mental illness it is, is the logical thing to do.

2. You make it about the feels when you pander to it, which clearly you have decided to do.

3. For a party that claims to be the party of science, your type sure does like to change biology based on feelings,

4. and manipulate climate data to push a political agenda.

5. You're just as dishonest as the rest of them. It's no wonder you indentify as a progressive.
I'm going to try to tackle these points briefly and directly. The words above are all directly quoted, but I added spacing and numbers to make the reply clearer.

1. I don't think the issue involves pretending. Nor do I think that the problem is addressed or solved by anyone showing the courage to call somebody out. Aren't they already called trangender? You might feel that is logical, but you certainly haven't shown how it is logical. Even if you somehow did, is logic the basis for all social and health care policy? Is compassion logical? Is prison logical? Logic has its place, sure, but I'm not sure you have shown why logic is the only or best response to this, and even if it were, where is your policy or solution? Does it stop ate labelling? Let's say that we say that people have an illness, does that solve the illness, cure it, fix it, or address it? Lastly, I don't know for sure that transgender is an "illness", but so what if it were? Isn't there still a requirement to address it somehow?

2. I think I demonstrated that it is about feels regardless of which side of the issue you are on. One side feels this way, the other side feel some other way. It is a useless criteria.

3. Science should be non-partisan, and if one side chooses to identify itself as rejecting science, then I think that is to the detriment of everyone. Changing biology? Umm, no. Anyone who knows any biology would recognize that gender in natural systems is complicated and ambiguous both in terms of the relationship between chromosomes and organs, reproductive roles, roles in social groups, and gender roles in general. If you really want to use biology strictly to inform your position on transgender issues, look at the bonobos, one of our most closely related species, and see that they do not discriminate based on gender, sexual orientation, or gender role. Is that what you are suggesting we do? If so, I agree completely. Otherwise, I think that biology is not wholly instructive in this instance because social norms in modern human society involve far more culture than strict biological necessity. To deny this is folly.

4. Climate change data? I'll ignore this for now and stick with the transgender discussion.

5. I disagree, but you are entitled to whatever opinions and generalities suit you.
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Old 04-27-2017, 09:58 AM   #49
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I'm calling bullshit on your post as nonsense. Reality is not discrimination, it is reality. It's only 'discrimination' now because progressives are insane.

XX or XY. That's it. For the 0.01% of folks who suffer chromosomal abnormalities, we can work with them.
Reality is not discrimination. Fair enough. Humans can choose whether to discriminate or not and what the criteria will be for discrimination. Just because something is real does not mean that somebody needs to discriminate based on it. If you choose to treat someone differently because they are obese or diabetic, is that insane, reality, progressive? Whatever connection you are making between the need to discriminate against somebody based on gender identity and your concept of reality, you certainly haven't made it clear. It just seems like you have embraced a giant leap of faith with no justification. My point is that in the examples of people being punished, the punishment is not for pretending, it is for discrimination. Now, having said that, is there a reasonable amount of accommodation and respect that we need to show each other? I would hope so. Can that be overreached? Definitely. Should people be forced to treat somebody a certain way just because they want to be treated differently? I don't think so. I think basic non discrimination involves a level playing field situation. I'm not a bog fan of all of these new pronouns or this idea that people are being forced to use them. I have some sympathy for transgender people who feel that traditional language does not apply to them correctly, and some people may try to use new pronouns in new contexts, but language does not really change that way, and I think it is unrealistic. As I said in my original post, there seems to be a kind of madness going on on college campuses that I neither endorse, support, relate to, or connect to for any of my social or political beliefs. The more I learn about it, the more I think, what planet are these people from. Sadly, I think it is going both ways. I think just as many college liberal folks are coming out with this extortion mentality as people on the other end have bizarre economic and scientific ideas.

Somebody way upstream, I honestly hope it was Terran because the irony would be sweet, even if I am the only one who can enjoy it, said something about liberals are stupid because they see everything as black or white.

Well, consider the following quote, "XX or XY. That's it. " Not only have you reduced the issue of being transgender to exclusively the issue of gender instead, but you seem obsessed with collapsing gender into a binary (black or white) issue based exclusively on chromosomes. I guess that makes you an idiot and a liberal, although I'm not sure whose criteria those were without rereading the early parts of the thread. My view, transgender is complicated, involves more than chromosomes, as does gender itself.
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Old 04-27-2017, 10:39 AM   #50
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If you choose to treat someone differently because they are obese or diabetic, is that insane, reality, progressive?
Your post is progressive inanity and insane nonsense. You should treat someone who is obese or diabetic as if they were obese or diabetic. You don't provide a super-sized Happy Meal to an obese person and deny their weight. You don't provide a sugary drink to a diabetic and pretend they're in need of more 'energy' from cane sugar.

And you don't tell a person who is XX or XY that they are actually the opposite of their chromosomal sex orientation.

XX or XY. Objective reality. Not discrimination, thank you. REALITY.

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you seem obsessed with collapsing gender into a binary (black or white) issue based exclusively on chromosomes.
Human sexuality IS BINARY in 99.99% of cases, and the remaining 0.01% carry a congenital birth defect, not a 'third option.' Get back to us when your head isn't up your progressive ass on simple science.
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Old 04-27-2017, 10:46 AM   #51
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Human sexuality IS BINARY in 99.99% of cases, and the remaining 0.01% carry a congenital birth defect, not a 'third option.'
You seem unable to recognize a difference between human sexuality, gender, gender identity, and chromosomes. I can see why this seems black and white to you.
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:14 AM   #52
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You seem unable to recognize a difference between human sexuality, gender, gender identity, and chromosomes. I can see why this seems black and white to you.
Like a good progressive you attempt to obfuscate the reality of the situation, which is that transgender individuals and their supporters seek to label such individuals as male or female while pretending to simply be assuming an alternative social construct of gender

You want to hide this fact behind euphemisms and obfuscatory distinctions without a difference. The reality is that you cannot change your chromosomal sex orientation from birth through ANY process known to humanity, no matter what progressives demand you be called or what they enlist government entities into lying for you about regarding your birth certificate or otherwise. Forging documents and sewing on or chopping off body parts does not determine your sex, chromosomes do.

You can save the whole idiotic argument about gender and identity being a construct and malleable for someone who is stupid. The rest of the world knows that human sexual classification is binary and cannot be altered. Plenty of things exist on continuums in the world, but human sexual classification is not one of them. It is binary. Period.
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:39 AM   #53
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Like a good progressive you attempt to obfuscate the reality of the situation, which is that transgender individuals and their supporters seek to label such individuals as male or female while pretending to simply be assuming an alternative social construct of gender

You want to hide this fact behind euphemisms and obfuscatory distinctions without a difference. The reality is that you cannot change your chromosomal sex orientation from birth through ANY process known to humanity, no matter what progressives demand you be called or what they enlist government entities into lying for you about regarding your birth certificate or otherwise. Forging documents and sewing on or chopping off body parts does not determine your sex, chromosomes do.

You can save the whole idiotic argument about gender and identity being a construct and malleable for someone who is stupid. The rest of the world knows that human sexual orientation is binary and cannot be altered. Plenty of things exist on continuums in the world, but human sexuality is not one of them. Human sexuality is binary. Period.
You have made it clear that this is how you see it. I guess my question is how do transgender people exist if you are saying they don't exist. How do gay and bi people exist if human sexuality is binary? Let's leave the rest of the world out of this and just stick with what you know to be true for now. Again, you seem to conflate gender, sex, chromosomes, sexual orientation, and sexuality. I think if you pause for just a few minutes to think about what you are actually trying to say, you will realize that those are not all the same thing and they certainly aren't all binary. This isn't a gotcha moment. I think I know what you are trying to get at, you are just conflating too many terms.

Your real point is just that chromosomal gender is all there is to it. Which is fine, except that some people don't want to live life with their chromosomal gender and some do. The part I don't understand is the requirement to treat both of those groups as if they were the same group.
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:51 AM   #54
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You have made it clear that this is how you see it. I guess my question is how do transgender people exist if you are saying they don't exist.
More nonsense.

The way "I see it" regarding human sexual identification is not the issue. It is scientific reality. XX or XY. Period.

How do transgendered people exist? Because mental illness exists, and because progressives have tried to hide the impossibility of being a transsexual by relabeling it transgender, so that they can claim a new 'sex' (impossible) while calling it a simple social construct of gender.

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The part I don't understand is the requirement to treat both of those groups as if they were the same group.
And you never will, because far left progressives are mentally deficient and incapable of seeing reality for what it is.

You don't help the mentally ill by agreeing with their warped view of reality. Human sexual identification/sexuality is binary. The exceptions are so rare as to be less than .01% of a given population...far less, and that isn't a third option, it's a congenital birth defect with serious repercussions for health.
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Old 04-27-2017, 02:19 PM   #55
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More nonsense.

The way "I see it" regarding human sexual identification is not the issue. It is scientific reality. XX or XY. Period.

How do transgendered people exist? Because mental illness exists, and because progressives have tried to hide the impossibility of being a transsexual by relabeling it transgender, so that they can claim a new 'sex' (impossible) while calling it a simple social construct of gender.

And you never will, because far left progressives are mentally deficient and incapable of seeing reality for what it is.

You don't help the mentally ill by agreeing with their warped view of reality. Human sexual identification/sexuality is binary. The exceptions are so rare as to be less than .01% of a given population...far less, and that isn't a third option, it's a congenital birth defect with serious repercussions for health.
Now it is human sexual identification. Maybe you should pick one term and stick with it. Either way, since we disagree on the significance of chromosomes and I certainly don't think that chromosomal gender is the only thing relevant to gender identity or how to deal with it, it is probably not important to belabor that point with you. Mental deficiency of progressives? I acknowledge that this is your asserted position.

My point was simple. If chromosomes were the only component of gender identity, then there would be no transgendered people, since everyone's gender orientation would have been determined by the same chromosomes that determine chromosomal gender. However, since transgender people do exist and chromosomes do determine chromosomal gender, this proves that your views are incorrect. Clearly there is something more to gender identity than chromosomal gender. What is it? Is it an illness? Is it genetic? Is it hereditary? Perhaps it is cultural? What causes it? What factors contribute to it? What is the best cure? What if it is not curable? What is the best way for society to address it?

You seem to think that because you say it i sa mental illness that you know the best way to treat it. I find this laughable. Do you have any evidence that forcing a transgendered person to live as the gender they do not identify with helps them? Cures them? Let's them live a better life? Or are you just making shit up? It honestly seems like you are just making shit up.

In closing you reassert that "human sexual identification/ sexuality is binary." I'm sorry but your obsession with making complex issues black and white is just incorrect. There are many, many types of human sexuality. You are just plain wrong here. There are two chromosomal genders though. Perhaps you should not confuse human sexuality with gender.

Lastly, let's look at this one odd statement-"You don't help the mentally ill by agreeing with their warped view of reality." Are you implying that you are trying to help transgendered people? Even if you judge their view of reality to be warped, how do you help them by disagreeing with them. Unless you know what it is like to not identify with the gender of your anatomy, how would you know what you are agreeing or disagreeing with or how to be so helpful. I laugh a bit at the idea that you feel like you are motivated by a benevolent wish to be helpful to those who you think are so warped though. You'd make a great doctor.
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Old 04-27-2017, 02:46 PM   #56
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1.) I'm not sure I follow. How is saying that men cannot be women about "feels"? That's actually about facts.



2.) So you would be OK with forcing that black baker to cater a KKK rally, or otherwise discrimination right? Or that Jewish florist to serve those guys at the local chapter of the Hitler Youth meeting? Because, you know, they are a public business and it would be discrimination if they didn't. Also, isn't forcing someone to go against their belief discrimination against religion? Why is one form of discrimination acceptable, but not another? Just because someone opens a business should not mean they have to give up their beliefs. If I open a business, it is NOT peoples right to shop there. With the case of Kim Davis, that I can see the push back because that was a government position. She should have resigned if the job no longer allowed her to practice her beliefs. But a private business? Why is government getting involved in those? Isn't that what we DON'T want?



3.) Good on you, but unfortunately that's not a very good example because that job doesn't violate any beliefs. A Christian would also have no problem with registering gay people to vote. Also, it's not a private business (see Kim Davis above).



4.) Would you be OK with me standing in your bathroom while your wife/gf showers? I won't peek I promise. I mean, there is no evidence that I've peeked before that's just paranoia. Also, I will identify as female if that will help. That's how a lot of people feel about transgenders doing the same thing. Also, this isn't just about bathrooms. It's about locker rooms as well.
OK, here goes Pacer....You wrote a lot, but, I'll try to respond.

Point 1. If a man says they want to be treated as a woman and makes every attempt to live as a woman, and dresses as a woman, then what is the relevance of whether they can change their birth gender? If somebody does not want to play a long or participate in someone else's fantasy, those are feelings. Not to side track this, but what harm is done by just treating that person as a woman?

Point 2, lots of stuff here.... Would I personally force a black person or a Jew to cater or be a florist at the kkk or Hitler youth rally? No, I would not, but if they didn't do it because they were discriminating against those groups I would say it was discrimination, of course. That's like saying if somebody violated somebody's rights would I say they were violating their rights. Yes, I would. If I prevent somebody from going to church or participating in a religious ritual, that would be a constitutional violation of their rights. If I ask that same person to serve the public in the capacity of their role as business person and not judge people then of course that is not discriminating against religion. If I'm Catholic and I decide not to serve black people, gays, Jews, women, or Protestants, I am discriminating against them. Serving them does not constitute discrimination against my Catholocism. Your presentation is so twisted as to be absurd in this regard. Opening a public business does not mean you have to give up your beliefs. You are still able to practice your religion. What you are not able to do is discriminate against other people based on their religions, race, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, age, disability, etc. If you open a public business, it is the public's right to do business there unless you want to go to jail for illegal discrimination. This is why people who kick black people out of restaurants for being black go to jail. There are some odd exceptions to this, like for private clubs, but even those are not allowed to discriminate against protected classes, they just need to have people buy memberships.

3.) It is a good example for me, and while I don't agree with your insistence that "violating beliefs" has special relevance here, I do have beliefs, and other people have different beliefs, and helping them vote definitely takes precedence over my beliefs.

4.) If you are a transgender person committed to living your life as a woman, you have all of my support in doing that. I can't believe how difficult that must be in this paranoid, insensitive, discriminatory world. You have my blessing to share a locker room with my wife and my girlfriend, just don't introduce them to each other, and I wish you all the luck in the world with your transition.

So, let's get at what is really behind point 4. Fear of bathroom, shower room, locker room misbehavior, spying, molestations? Is that what this really is about? LEt's just agree then that this is what we are talking about. Exactly how big of a problem is this, and what are some good solutions? I have already proposed unisex bathrooms and private bathrooms. Many places have already done this. It seems like a non issue. Isn't there some way we can balance the needs of a young transgender person with the needs of everybody else who feels uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with them by just creating more private bathrooms in public spaces?
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Old 04-27-2017, 05:43 PM   #57
Terran
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Now it is human sexual identification.
That's EXACTLY the problem with you dumb progressive morons, you've twisted the language to suit ideology and obfuscate reality. It's not conservatives and folks who actually attend to the science who have confused sexual and gender identity, it's progressives who, in the interest of ideology, have tried to confuse the two in order to make the impossible (sex change) possible (gender change).

Human biological sexuality is binary. Sexual identification is binary. XX or XY is it.

Sexual attraction is of course a different story, as are social roles related to gender, which change across cultures and time, but human sexuality....human sexual identification...biological sex...ARE BINARY. XX or XY. Lying to a mentally ill person and agreeing with their warped view of reality does not help them. Nor does enlisting the state to legalize a fiction through forged documents announcing something (a sex change) that is absolutely impossible and untrue.

You're a dumbass. See my sig. Whimbrel.
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Old 04-27-2017, 06:28 PM   #58
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Whimbrel, what part of gender isn't a personal choice is not getting through to you? No matter how much progressives pretend, that doesn't make it reality.
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Old 04-28-2017, 11:16 AM   #59
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Liberals love to torture language in order to hide their actual intentions.

"Safe space" = We don't like your ideas and can't counter them so we'll eliminate them.
"Transgender" = We realize you can't change sex, so we'll let people think they can change their sex while hiding it behind gender and equate the change with cultural values, since we can't claim it based upon science or reality.
"Climate change" = It stopped warming, so we'll just call it climate change and ANY change is evidence of our view that humans are destroying the Earth so...BIG GOV'T!
"Affordable Care Act" = You won't be able to afford it, and we don't care.
"Racist/Misogynist/Discriminator" = We don't like your ideas, so we'll refute them by ad hominem distrac...hey, look over here; shiny thing!

Etc., etc., et al.
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Old 04-30-2017, 01:59 PM   #60
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Liberal tolerance, lol:

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