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Old 05-23-2018, 06:57 PM   #21
Chief Smash
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Originally Posted by JazGalaxy View Post
You have to play at least 10+ specific psvr games to fully understand the breadth of what the setup is capable of.
That doesn't sound like a very good way to sell people on a system.
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Old 05-23-2018, 07:50 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by brandonjclark View Post
In other news, LG and Google develop an OLED screen that's approaching the resolution of your own friggin EYES!


However, no GPU can push it yet.

https://venturebeat.com/2018/05/22/g...screen-for-vr/
Approaching? Not even close!

Quote:
While the screen’s per eye pixel count of 4800 by 3840 is staggering in comparison with current-generation VR headsets, it actually falls well short of what researchers say is the upper bound of human vision: 9600 by 9000.
18 million pixels is nice but it's no 86 million pixels. We've got a ways to go before machine beats God. Not that I won't give a serious thought to upgrading if it happens and I have the resources...
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Old 05-23-2018, 09:45 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by JazGalaxy View Post
I actually have seen a ton of conversions from the “casual” market. My sister in law is a great example. She hates games, but one turn in “I Expect You To Die”, and she was asking my brother if they could get one. The only reason she didn’t is because the game is, while great, too short. She finished it after binging it for 6 or y hours and asked if there was any more. There wasn’t, so she was over it. The psvr reddit is full of similar stories of either conversions, or faltered starts where the lack of content just couldn’t make people pull the trigger.

The problem with VR remains people not getting to try it. And, even if they do, lacking the imagination. To understand how it applies to ALL games.

You have to play at least 10+ specific psvr games to fully understand the breadth of what the setup is capable of.
The amount of eye rolling that occurred while reading this post was worth visiting the thread. Thank you for continuing to speak from your rear end on every topic under the sun.
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Old 05-24-2018, 12:05 AM   #24
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Cell phones are from the 80s. They are 35 plus years old . They sucked the first 20 years or so. It's only the last 15 or so years that true mass adoption has occurred. Do you think current phones are somehow not waaaay better than the giant brick like phones from the 80s? But thanks for making my point for me while still being wrong.
Cell phones are from the 80s. Did I ever say they weren't? I said people didn't have Cell phones. I didn't say Cell phones weren't INVENTED yet.

The internet was invented in the 70s. People didn't HAVE the internet until much later.

Seriously, when you sit around and TRY to find things to point out that I'm "wrong" about, it just makes you look even more stupid than you do under your own merits.
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Old 05-24-2018, 12:19 AM   #25
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That doesn't sound like a very good way to sell people on a system.
It's just a testament to how versatile the system is. I would argue that it's not much different than the Wii or the Switch. Many people have no imagination and they can only think in terms of what they have seen before. It takes them being able to see for themselves all the different ways that VR affects gaming before they will understand.
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Old 05-24-2018, 02:02 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by JazGalaxy View Post
Cell phones are from the 80s. Did I ever say they weren't? I said people didn't have Cell phones. I didn't say Cell phones weren't INVENTED yet.

The internet was invented in the 70s. People didn't HAVE the internet until much later.
Ahem, that is the point he was trying to make! VR exists now (well, it existed since the mid-90s), but it'll take another 10 years before it's good/accessible/affordable enough for people to own/use it.

That said, I think this is an interesting discussion, because basically, everything everyone said is true, in my opinion. VR is great, it's fantastic, it's unsuccessful, it can't be demonstrated properly (remember our discussions from 2 years back?), it's anti-social, it's the future, it's a failure, and Sony is the winner of the loser's bracket.

Now, where is "Ace Combat 7", the main reason I bought my PSVR in the first place? Also, if Sony ever releases a PSVR2 with the resolution of the Vive Pro, I'm likely to buy it...
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Old 05-24-2018, 03:56 AM   #27
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It's just a testament to how versatile the system is. I would argue that it's not much different than the Wii or the Switch. Many people have no imagination and they can only think in terms of what they have seen before. It takes them being able to see for themselves all the different ways that VR affects gaming before they will understand.
Yeah but products have to be really approachable for people to make that leap and start seeing the value. You mention the Switch and Wii. All you have to do is see someone playing Skyrim, Zelda, or Mario Kart 8 in portable mode on the Switch and you can see the value in the product. With the Wii, all you need to do is see someone playing Wii Sports. These are very ad friendly ways to win someone over. But with the PSVR, you need to actually try it yourseld and even then, you need to try the right (10 as you say) games or it doesn't seem worth the effort to a lot of people. And on top of trying those right games, it's far less approachable because it's cumbersome and kind of pricey. I'm not saying it's not good but I never really thought it was ready for primetime. As has been mentioned, it's not unlike cell phones. I knew people that had a "car phone" back in the day but they weren't ubiquitous until they became a lot less cumbersome and more effective and affordable.
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Old 05-24-2018, 04:49 AM   #28
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Ahem, that is the point he was trying to make! VR exists now (well, it existed since the mid-90s), but it'll take another 10 years before it's good/accessible/affordable enough for people to own/use it.
Holy crap. Yet again i feel like im in the bloody twilight zone.

I KNOW thats the point he’s trying to make. My point is that its a STUPID point.

Psvr costs 199 right now. The idea that it’s an exorbitant crippling price that only doctors and astronauts can afford is stupid. Moreover, twenty years is the time it took OLD tech to go from new and unattainable to a commodity that even homeless people own. Predicting that it will take an already cheap technology of the 21st century 20 years to make a similar gain is, again, stupid. In 20 years VR will be not only 100% adopted, but leapt OVER by new yet similar tech, at the current rate of technical advancement.
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Old 05-24-2018, 04:56 AM   #29
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Yeah but products have to be really approachable for people to make that leap and start seeing the value. You mention the Switch and Wii. All you have to do is see someone playing Skyrim, Zelda, or Mario Kart 8 in portable mode on the Switch and you can see the value in the product. With the Wii, all you need to do is see someone playing Wii Sports. These are very ad friendly ways to win someone over. But with the PSVR, you need to actually try it yourseld and even then, you need to try the right (10 as you say) games or it doesn't seem worth the effort to a lot of people. And on top of trying those right games, it's far less approachable because it's cumbersome and kind of pricey. I'm not saying it's not good but I never really thought it was ready for primetime. As has been mentioned, it's not unlike cell phones. I knew people that had a "car phone" back in the day but they weren't ubiquitous until they became a lot less cumbersome and more effective and affordable.

I wonder if there's another part to it too. There's been a growing trend to get away from being so technology-centric (which VR is the epitome of) and having massive amounts of screen time by a portion of the population. Things like DYI and "maker" stuff is taking off, table top board games are more popular than ever, and some people are making a real push to have more real, directly social and interactive time with their family.

VR is the opposite to that. It's more isolating than standard controller gaming, even. That's part of the lack of appeal to me. Cost isn't the biggest issue. Understanding what VR offers isn't an issue. I just don't want to further isolate myself from my family for hours at a time in a device that cuts out more of my sensory to my surroundings.

I have zero interest in VR, and I doubt I ever will. It just doesn't appeal to me. In the nearly unlimited list of things I could be doing, VR gaming just doesn't jump to the top. I'd rather play a multiplayer game with family, or play Gloomhaven. Or go for a hike, or to a park, or travel, or play games with a controller, where family can walk in any time and easily get my attention.

And really, wearing goggles and enhancing my perspective in the game a bit seems merely novel to me. Nothing I'm going to spend a premium of hundreds of dollars on.


This is just my lone, individual perspective, but in the argument of "it will never have mass appeal" vs "it will take off in 10 years", you can put me in the former category. I will likely never purchase any VR product.

But for those who love it, hopefully it takes off enough to keep giving you great games to play in VR.

As for me, I just...don't want it.

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Old 05-24-2018, 05:06 AM   #30
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Yeah but products have to be really approachable for people to make that leap and start seeing the value. You mention the Switch and Wii. All you have to do is see someone playing Skyrim, Zelda, or Mario Kart 8 in portable mode on the Switch and you can see the value in the product. With the Wii, all you need to do is see someone playing Wii Sports. These are very ad friendly ways to win someone over. But with the PSVR, you need to actually try it yourseld and even then, you need to try the right (10 as you say) games or it doesn't seem worth the effort to a lot of people. And on top of trying those right games, it's far less approachable because it's cumbersome and kind of pricey. I'm not saying it's not good but I never really thought it was ready for primetime. As has been mentioned, it's not unlike cell phones. I knew people that had a "car phone" back in the day but they weren't ubiquitous until they became a lot less cumbersome and more effective and affordable.
I agree with what you’re saying, although I don’t believe that it takes playing all ten, which is a random estimation, psvr games to understand what psvr can be. I think each game simply more fleshes out the potential. I think just playing ONE game is enough to convince people, as happens frequently. But I think that some people stilll need to be shown what vr can do even when they are already support VR.

For instance, a lot of people can immediately understand why a horror game might be more scary in VR.

But not everyone immediately thinks about the fact that you can manually control your x-wing in Star Wars with one button by looking at the actual buttons, levers and displays and using them as you would a “real” x-wing. It’s both more fun, more immersive, and better design because you only need to know one controller button. Everything else is contextual and labeled inside the game word.

Some people might not think about that platform adventure games are infinitely more playable because 3D fixes depth perception issues and being able to move your head around to see what you are looking at fixes camera problems.

Some people may get that you can control a car or plane with your DualShock, but not get that you can also play a game like Ultrawings where you use your move controller-hands to grab a virtual steering wheel or joystick which allows you to do things in the cabin like multitask. You could have a twisted metal game where not only do you drive a car with guns mounted to the front, but you could have a side arm that you can use to shoot left and right. Or maybe even have to punch and grapple with other players who run up to your car and try to open the door and throw you out.

Litsceasy to get the idea that you might hold a move controller like a gun, but not everyone would get the fun of having to manually eject your clip, reach down and pull out a new one with your out her hand, load it and manually pull the slide back to cock it. (As you do in London Heist). Adding the extra pressure of having to manually do a repetitive but precise task under time pressure is tense and fun.

These are the kind of brand new game elements that VR brings to the table that people don’t immediately get without being shown.
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Old 05-24-2018, 05:20 AM   #31
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I wonder if there's another part to it too. There's been a growing trend to get away from being so technology-centric (which VR is the epitome of) and having massive amounts of screen time by a portion of the population. Things like DYI and "maker" stuff is taking off, table top board games are more popular than ever, and some people are making a real push to have more real, directly social and interactive time with their family.

VR is the opposite to that. It's more isolating than standard controller gaming, even. That's part of the lack of appeal to me. Cost isn't the biggest issue. Understanding what VR offers isn't an issue. I just don't want to further isolate myself from my family for hours at a time in a device that cuts out more of my sensory to my surroundings.

I have zero interest in VR, and I doubt I ever will. It just doesn't appeal to me. In the nearly unlimited list of things I could be doing, VR gaming just doesn't jump to the top. I'd rather play a multiplayer game with family, or play Gloomhaven. Or go for a hike, or to a park, or travel, or play games with a controller, where family can walk in any time and easily get my attention.

And really, wearing goggles and enhancing my perspective in the game a bit seems merely novel to me. Nothing I'm going to spend a premium of hundreds of dollars on.


This is just my lone, individual perspective, but in the argument of "it will never have mass appeal" vs "it will take off in 10 years", you can put me in the former category. I will likely never purchase any VR product.

But for those who love it, hopefully it takes off enough to keep giving you great games to play in VR.

As for me, I just...don't want it.

I can absolutely understand what you are saying. But i firmly believe that at some point in the next 10 years, you will not have a choice but to use VR in some capacity. At some point VR and AR will blend, so that will alleviate some of your concerns. But playing cames like Contraption Maker and Coolpaintr VR immediately sell the idea that the future of education and the future of engineering/mechanics is VR.

Im an artist so i spend a lot of time studying Artistic Anatomy. Part of that study means using medical apps to explore and learn the human body. In even just the past few years, anatomy study has become infinitely more accessible, cheap and of a much higer quality do to tablets and touch interfaces. VR even lespfrogs THAT by an tremendous amount.

The concept of not having to look at slides of famous artworks in an art history class but rather being sble to view them in VR st accurate scale and in their intendee environment is of tremendous scademic value.

The ability to work on a 3d CAD file and be able to work on the z axis by reaching INTO the z axis is similarly revolutionary. Anyone who has done any 3d modelling knows how frustrating it is to deal with the camera.

Long story short, VR/AR will quickly become a necessary part of professional and academic life.
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Old 05-24-2018, 06:47 AM   #32
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There are no kinks with VR aside from people not wanting go try it.
You keep repeating this as if it's a failure of the consumer and not the product. It isn't, the product is at fault. You can say it doesn't have any kinks, but it really does and that's why it's not catching on. Come back in 10 years and try again.
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Old 05-24-2018, 06:50 AM   #33
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Psvr costs 199 right now. The idea that it’s an exorbitant crippling price that only doctors and astronauts can afford is stupid.
#1) It's $199 on top of the price of a PS4.
#2) There's a space requirement and you can downplay that but it's significant and is one of the major barriers to why I haven't picked one up.
#3) It's not about what people can afford. It's about what people will afford.

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...
I very much agree with what you're saying. My family still games fairly often but we've also been trying to get back to more analog ways of entertaining everyone. We've been playing a lot of board games over the last couple of years and we do a lot more reading and hands on hobbies than in previous years. Jazz, I also very much agree with you that VR will be unavoidable in the future. But it will be in the future, not as it is now.

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You keep repeating this as if it's a failure of the consumer and not the product. It isn't, the product is at fault. You can say it doesn't have any kinks, but it really does and that's why it's not catching on. Come back in 10 years and try again.
Agreed. It's still a very cumbersome setup in its current format. It may be cool but it's not really convenient for most people, not yet.
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Old 05-24-2018, 07:08 AM   #34
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You keep repeating this as if it's a failure of the consumer and not the product. It isn't, the product is at fault. You can say it doesn't have any kinks, but it really does and that's why it's not catching on. Come back in 10 years and try again.
This is a valid criticism, but I truly don't think it's all attributed to failure of the product. I think it is a failure of marketing, development guidance and, yes, the consumer.

There is a pervasive unfounded negativity toward VR, and much of it is initiated by people who haven't even TRIED it. Hating something before you've tried it isn't a fault of the manufacturer despite it being fully the manufacturers loss. If I can't sell a digital camera to a tribe of forgotten people groups because they think it will steal their soul, that's not a fault of my product. A fault of my persuasive attempts? Sure. But not the product.
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Old 05-24-2018, 07:29 AM   #35
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“Sometimes people get sick”

Yeah, well, that was a thing when Doom first came out too.
I don't think this is something to just gloss over. I've had my Rift for quite some time and I still feel sickness while using it (I immediately start feeling sick the moment I turn it on). And the effects stay with me for some time afterward. Don't get me wrong, I love it (Star Trek Bridge Commander is AWESOME), but I can't use it for very long or very often. I'm sure people either experience that or hear about that and get cold feet. And I have no plans on upgrading because of it.

Also, it's Gen 1. There are long wires. There are sensors to set up around you. Some games require a significant space to use it in. Screen door.

I definitely agree that VR is waiting for the "must have" app before gaining widespread adoption, but I think people could be waiting on Generation 2 as well.
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Old 05-24-2018, 07:37 AM   #36
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This is a valid criticism, but I truly don't think it's all attributed to failure of the product. I think it is a failure of marketing, development guidance and, yes, the consumer.

There is a pervasive unfounded negativity toward VR, and much of it is initiated by people who haven't even TRIED it. Hating something before you've tried it isn't a fault of the manufacturer despite it being fully the manufacturers loss. If I can't sell a digital camera to a tribe of forgotten people groups because they think it will steal their soul, that's not a fault of my product. A fault of my persuasive attempts? Sure. But not the product.
No, it is the manufacturers fault. They were the ones stupid enough to try and sell a digital camera to a primitive tribe when that tribe obviously didn't want it. They should have been selling shiny beads. Probably would have made a killing on that.

VR still has serious problems and blaming the consumer for not wanting it because of that is just ridiculous.
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Old 05-24-2018, 07:40 AM   #37
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I don't think this is something to just gloss over. I've had my Rift for quite some time and I still feel sickness while using it (I immediately start feeling sick the moment I turn it on). And the effects stay with me for some time afterward. Don't get me wrong, I love it (Star Trek Bridge Commander is AWESOME), but I can't use it for very long or very often. I'm sure people either experience that or hear about that and get cold feet. And I have no plans on upgrading because of it.

Also, it's Gen 1. There are long wires. There are sensors to set up around you. Some games require a significant space to use it in. Screen door.

I definitely agree that VR is waiting for the "must have" app before gaining widespread adoption, but I think people could be waiting on Generation 2 as well.
And that's a valid criticism. I can absolutely understand the idea that a product picks up steam as its form factor becomes morendesireable. Handheld gaming had many false starts because of limitations like battery life, screen size and lighting issues. But people gradually adopted it over time and more and more people purchased it right up until the 3ds and now Switch being some of the largest adoption numbers.

I can absolutely see VR following a similar path. My point is simply that " try again in 10 years" is increasingly silly and not remotely the way the tech industry works.

"Game boy strains my eyes! Go away and come back in 20 years!" I mean... what?
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Old 05-24-2018, 07:53 AM   #38
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I think Sony needs to pay devs to do more conversions of PS3 games to PS4VR games.

Players are wary of buying a $200 peripheral if all the top games are done by small teams and are 1-2 day experiences. If you look at "Best PSVR games" lists they are more than 50% not "big games"

Skyrim showed that huge experiences can be done on PSVR -- and that's a "first gen port to vr" with bad lockpicking and weaksauce inventory management. Additionally, the Move controllers are lacking joysticks - which is a huge miss. It makes moving in SkyrimVR unintuitive.

Let's say there are 3 categories of games:
Minigames
2 - 7 day games
Big games

Right now PSVR has amazing quality Minigames like Rush of Blood
It has good 2-7 day games like Moss, Battlezone
and it has 2 slightly below average quality big games Skyrim and Drive Club. 1 Average quality game: Farpoint. And 1 excellent big game Resident Evil

However, as fun as horror is for some, its just a turn off genre for others. So the platform needs a big game that is not horror.

Eve Valk is a vomit comet. RIGS is a vomit comet. Which is a shame because the quality is there.

AAA Ports is the way forward. Of course, you are going to need more ports to do the job because a lot of players that played it before in non vr are going to skip the port.

Some opportunities for PSVR would be:
Journey
LA Noire
Little Big Planet 3
Yakuza 5
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Old 05-24-2018, 08:23 AM   #39
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I have the PSVR and I've spent weeks with Microsoft's Hololens...

and I would take Hololens in a second.. It's completely self contained with the battery CPU GPU and all the tech in the device itself, does both VR and AR and then can mix them together & adapts to your surroundings in real time. Hololens is the future..
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Old 05-24-2018, 09:09 AM   #40
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I love my PSVR, when I have something to play on it. The two biggest problem is lack of quality games and their stupid controls that people need to adapt to. Bring a real controller to the platform and bring out some quality games and you will have a winner.
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