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Old 09-04-2012, 07:26 AM   #41
Taiso
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Join Date: Apr 2007
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I see the real problem as this:

People play this game expecting it to be 'God of War' hard so that's how they attack it.

They never stop to wonder whether they've chosen a play style (zweihander) or gear (heavy armor) that may not be the best for their particular skill set.

People need to find out what works best for them, even if that means they don't get to play the hugeass weapons they romanticize about early on, until they get more familiar with the enemies.

Pattern recognition is everything. The game doesn't care how fast you can mash buttons and there are very few attacks that clear the space around you. And then, there are element strengths and weaknesses to consider.

There is a lot going into this game and it expects you to pay attention.

I love this game the way it is on PS3 EXCEPT for the invasions. I do not care for the forced PVP in this game. At all.

As for an 'easy' mode, I agree that there should be one. This is too good of an experience, too lush of a world, too fascinating a take on dark fantasy, for many RPG and genre fans to be turned away because they're not good enough to play it as it is.

My suggestions for easy mode:

Voluntary respawning of enemies-when you die, you get asked if you would like the enemies to respawn, with a message stating 'Waring: if you choose not to respawn the enemies, you will not be able to get souls until you reach areas you have not yet conquered.'

Voluntary PVP-You can choose whether or not to actively engage in PVP with the flick of a switch. This way, new players and players that don't really want to deal with griefers and people that have sunk an insane amount of time into the game don't have to put up with it.

Less HP per enemy-that way they die faster. BUT, you get less souls in easy mode. This creates a need for repetition, but repetition is how people will become better.

Reward better gameplay-the less damage you take from an enemy, the more souls you get. This way, you are rewarding people that are paying attention and actually TRYING to become better so that they can tackle the real difficulty.

True endings only available on regular/hard difficulty-lots of 8 bit video games did this, and I feel it works here. After you finish the game, you don't get the choice for 'light' or 'dark'. You instead get a generic ending that states 'your victory did not really end the threat. You only fought an aspect of the king bad guy, not the true bad guy. He will not face you unless you prove your worth.'

Done and done. I'm submitting this to From Software.
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Old 09-04-2012, 07:37 AM   #42
JazGalaxy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rommel View Post
I cannot comment on that, not having played, but I can echo the sentiments that I have no interest in a game that beats me up in order to obtain some kind of satisfaction that I weathered such a storm. There are plenty of enjoyable experiences in the gaming medium that do not stick needles in my testicles and ask how good it would feel if they were removed. Maybe I am exactly the audience for a toned-down Dark Souls, but I cannot say until the above question is answered.


I think you're looking at "hard" in the wrong perspective. Or, rather, a different perspective than people who enjoy difficult games.

What doesn't get talked about enough in the industry isthat people enjoy games for different reasons. There are soem people who start up a game to "see all of it". THey're videogame tourists. There are other gamers, like myself, who can't possibly have fun with a game unless there is a challenge to overcome. My friends and I were playing left 4 dead the toher day. I was somewhat bored with it until we hit a point that we couldn't pass, trading off controllers. I become more and more engaged in the game, death after death, until we finally beat the section and the room erupted into cheers. Learning where things are, what paths to take, what scenarios to avoid, and how to actually play the nuances of the game are hwat are fun to me. When I can just mash buttons nad succeed, I'm as bored as bored gets.

To say I enjoy being flagulated is simply wrong. It's overcoming adversity, the root of all good stories, that is entertaining.
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Old 09-04-2012, 08:58 AM   #43
Rommel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazGalaxy View Post
I think you're looking at "hard" in the wrong perspective. Or, rather, a different perspective than people who enjoy difficult games.

What doesn't get talked about enough in the industry isthat people enjoy games for different reasons. There are soem people who start up a game to "see all of it". THey're videogame tourists. There are other gamers, like myself, who can't possibly have fun with a game unless there is a challenge to overcome. My friends and I were playing left 4 dead the toher day. I was somewhat bored with it until we hit a point that we couldn't pass, trading off controllers. I become more and more engaged in the game, death after death, until we finally beat the section and the room erupted into cheers. Learning where things are, what paths to take, what scenarios to avoid, and how to actually play the nuances of the game are hwat are fun to me. When I can just mash buttons nad succeed, I'm as bored as bored gets.

To say I enjoy being flagulated is simply wrong. It's overcoming adversity, the root of all good stories, that is entertaining.
So is Dark Souls no longer an objectively good game if played on easy? This is the pertinent question of the thread.
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Old 09-04-2012, 09:10 AM   #44
Taiso
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rommel View Post
So is Dark Souls no longer an objectively good game if played on easy? This is the pertinent question of the thread.
It is still a good game if played on easy.

Intricate, detailed, and balanced character and item building system.
Good controls.
Excellent graphics.
Excellent aesthetics (storytelling, world building, soundtrack, enemy design, etc.)

There is plenty of great material in this game that makes it good.

I understand the core question: if the point of it all is to present a challenging combat experience and the game's merit is primarily based off of that, is the merit nonexistent when the challenge is removed?

There is still plenty of merit to be found in a wholly worthy product.
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Old 09-04-2012, 11:24 AM   #45
vallor
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One thing that rubs me the wrong way is the implication that if I don't like the difficultly of the game that I'm somehow a pussy or not a real/serious gamer. There is a lot of that in this thread that says basically "If you don't like Dark Souls you must not like being challenged". People who really like it put themselves on this extra pedestal like they are the kings of gaming because they somehow "got it" and groked the message and nuance that was Dark Souls. That pisses me off. Also on my "things pissing me off" list is the exaggeration that this is a free flowing game. Try that in the first 5 hours and you'll see it isn't. Banshees will tear the fuck out of you so you're forced down a particular path. There isn't any "free form" game here.

I also don't like the "video game tourist" label, which is nearly as insulting as it implies the same thing: "you people just can't handle the 'hard' games." Sadly it's probably most accurate but not because of the difficulty. I have much more money than time these days, yet I want to explore my games and see everything I paid for. I plop in a game and hit easy because I just want to see what happens next.

My criteria for a "good" game is no longer how long it takes me to beat something, it's how good was the story, how solid are the game systems? Did the game bring anything new to the genre? Did they introduce any new and exciting mechanics that we can expect to become a new standard?

If the game excites me enough, like when Horde mode came with Gears of War 2, then I'll play them again and again in the harder difficultly modes. I want to make sure it's worth my time first.

Dark Souls, as it stands, isn't worth my time. With an easy mode though with some of the features Taiso mentions above... I might give it another go and finally get past that part where the boss charges you before you've even fully loaded into the game.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:34 PM   #46
RocketMagnet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Jesus View Post
I have NOT bought this game because everybody talks about how damn difficult it is. No thanks...lots of other games to spend my time with instead.
They are confusing difficult with unfair difficulty and your believing them without even trying it. TBH I didnt buy it initially because i thought it
would simply fall into the unfair difficulty bracket... but it doesn't
and i can't think of any modern game i'd rather have played instead of it.
Do a feature of you comparing the supposed DS difficulty with difficult games
of old highlighting the difference.

Dark Souls isn't unfair it the exact opposite it just requires you to learn how to play and not
just press a button to continue the story. The difficulty moniker is simply
hype as when you die it's your fault.. once you actually take the time to play
the game and realise that your in full control and when you die you can't
blame anyone except yourself then it's too much for some people.

Do yourself a favour and ignore them and try it, yeah its a steep learning
curve but you do stop dying and tbh its the only true adventure with
any sense of reward i've been on in the last 10 years gaming wise.
Even the imfamous Duo wasn't that hard really, I found the Capra Daemon
the only real nasty encounter.

A good analogy is learning to ride a bike, seems hard when your 4 or 5
but once you manage its not that hard really.. some people get a scraped knee
and cry to mommy its too difficult and give up.. they justify this by claiming the games too hard.. So no DS doesn't
need stabalizers easy mode it just needs people to grow a set.

I personally enjoyed Skyrim until a few hours in when combat became a joke
I dont think i ever died above level 10 or so, not even close and it ruined it
for me as i was just doing the "story" and not really playing a game.
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:44 PM   #47
vallor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketMagnet View Post
They are confusing difficult with unfair difficulty and your believing them without even trying it. TBH I didnt buy it initially because i thought it
would simply fall into the unfair difficulty bracket... but it doesn't
and i can't think of any modern game i'd rather have played instead of it.
Do a feature of you comparing the supposed DS difficulty with difficult games
of old highlighting the difference.

Dark Souls isn't unfair it the exact opposite it just requires you to learn how to play and not
just press a button to continue the story. The difficulty moniker is simply
hype as when you die it's your fault.. once you actually take the time to play
the game and realise that your in full control and when you die you can't
blame anyone except yourself then it's too much for some people.

Do yourself a favour and ignore them and try it, yeah its a steep learning
curve but you do stop dying and tbh its the only true adventure with
any sense of reward i've been on in the last 10 years gaming wise.
Even the imfamous Duo wasn't that hard really, I found the Capra Daemon
the only real nasty encounter.

A good analogy is learning to ride a bike, seems hard when your 4 or 5
but once you manage its not that hard really.. some people get a scraped knee
and cry to mommy its too difficult and give up.. they justify this by claiming the games too hard.. So no DS doesn't
need stabalizers easy mode it just needs people to grow a set.
Thanks for making my point for me. The game is punishingly hard and this is the spoon of sugar that is supposed to make the putrid snake oil the fans would have you swallow go down.

p.s. Let's not forget that economically, the people who would buy the game and maybe recommend it would skyrocket beyond the complete niche this game currently occupies. If From wants to simply continue to exist, that's fine. But if they want to succeed, that's a different story.
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Old 09-04-2012, 07:59 PM   #48
Anenome
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taiso View Post
True endings only available on regular/hard difficulty-lots of 8 bit video games did this, and I feel it works here. After you finish the game, you don't get the choice for 'light' or 'dark'. You instead get a generic ending that states 'your victory did not really end the threat. You only fought an aspect of the king bad guy, not the true bad guy. He will not face you unless you prove your worth.'
Thus the amulet perk controversy.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:18 AM   #49
Jadbalja
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I might pick it up if they add an easy mode. I find that at 50 years old, I no longer have the reflexes or the patience I had when I was 15 or 20 when I was playing old school video games. Back then I felt a great satisfaction when I finally managed to kill a boss or finish a level after 50 tries. Now, even if I didn't quit long before 50 tries, I just feel a sick relief. Real life has enough frustration -- I play games to get away from that. That being said, I realize there is a fine line between challenging and frustrating. Hence the need for multiple difficulty levels. Difficulty levels that can be adjusted on the fly and/or free saves or frequent save points are even better.
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