Evil Avatar  



Go Back   Evil Avatar > Daily Gaming News > News Items

» Sponsored Links


» Recent Threads
Midway Defeats Doctor...
Last post by Terran
Today 03:16 PM
3 Replies, 199 Views
Game & Movie Releases...
Last post by ElektroDragon
Today 02:45 PM
3 Replies, 134 Views
Vacation Dreams become...
Last post by Evil Avatar
Today 12:29 PM
1 Replies, 173 Views
Elizabeth Moss takes on...
Last post by MADxMrMike
Today 11:24 AM
8 Replies, 848 Views
It's Sunday: What NFL...
Last post by wunshot
Today 10:38 AM
9 Replies, 349 Views
Pure Evil - You’re...
Last post by vivafletcher
Today 07:36 AM
19 Replies, 1,451 Views
Weekend Headbanger -...
Last post by ElektroDragon
Yesterday 11:59 PM
8 Replies, 481 Views
Nic Cage fights an...
Last post by Booda
Yesterday 11:38 PM
14 Replies, 914 Views
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-24-2019, 01:22 PM   #21
Chief Smash
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: CT - USA
Posts: 4,303
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpectralThundr View Post
Skill should determine victory, headshots and accurate shots in this game kill regardless of your stats. That is the very definition of skill determining victory.
Playing a little devil's advocate here because I do agree with you. But games need to be fun too. If we were really relying totally on skill then why play a computer game? Why not meet out in a field and duke it out with real skill? Devs needs to balance skill with fun though. If a game designs towards the high skill hardcore players at the risk of fun, they risk losing the market. I'm guessing it's one of the harder concepts to design around since skills vary so wildly as does the perception of what real skill is.
Chief Smash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 02:33 PM   #22
SpectralThundr
Evil Dead
 
SpectralThundr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Boston/Ontario
Posts: 8,925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Smash View Post
Playing a little devil's advocate here because I do agree with you. But games need to be fun too. If we were really relying totally on skill then why play a computer game? Why not meet out in a field and duke it out with real skill? Devs needs to balance skill with fun though. If a game designs towards the high skill hardcore players at the risk of fun, they risk losing the market. I'm guessing it's one of the harder concepts to design around since skills vary so wildly as does the perception of what real skill is.
I agree, these types of titles though, niche as they are still have a market. They won't do Call of Duty type numbers obviously, but I believe there is enough of a market for it to be profitable.
SpectralThundr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 03:50 PM   #23
Mozain
Fueled By Tits & Revenge
 
Mozain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Canada eh!
Posts: 874
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpectralThundr View Post
Go back to quake or UT then. You're making claims about a title you obviously haven't played and don't know squat about, which seems to be a theme with you.
Well then I completely expect to never see you in a Nintendo thread again hmmmm? Ah but we know that won't be the case.

Any game that implements bonuses to make up for deficiencies or shore up already existing skill cannot be "hardcore" to me by definition... And that's o.k.

Regardless, I said I'd be quite fine to play it, but we just look at things differently is all. I'm not going to pay to test it so let me know when they offer some kind of free weekend or something.
Mozain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 05:50 PM   #24
SpectralThundr
Evil Dead
 
SpectralThundr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Boston/Ontario
Posts: 8,925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mozain View Post
Well then I completely expect to never see you in a Nintendo thread again hmmmm? Ah but we know that won't be the case.

Any game that implements bonuses to make up for deficiencies or shore up already existing skill cannot be "hardcore" to me by definition... And that's o.k.

Regardless, I said I'd be quite fine to play it, but we just look at things differently is all. I'm not going to pay to test it so let me know when they offer some kind of free weekend or something.
Ahh but you see I have played these Nintendo games, 20 years ago. Nintendo are the masters of rehashing the same shit over and over.
SpectralThundr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 06:21 PM   #25
Mozain
Fueled By Tits & Revenge
 
Mozain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Canada eh!
Posts: 874
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpectralThundr View Post
Ahh but you see I have played these Nintendo games, 20 years ago. Nintendo are the masters of rehashing the same shit over and over.
Discounting of course their new IPs.

But sure, Breath of the Wild is the same game as Ocarina of Time.

Just like Metal Gear is the same game as Metal Gear Solid 4, and Escape from Tarkov is the same game as Golden Eye.

Guess I've been there and done that too.

But you know you're being disingenuous, so I guess we'll leave it at that.
Mozain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 10:16 PM   #26
SpectralThundr
Evil Dead
 
SpectralThundr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Boston/Ontario
Posts: 8,925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mozain View Post
Discounting of course their new IPs.

But sure, Breath of the Wild is the same game as Ocarina of Time.

Just like Metal Gear is the same game as Metal Gear Solid 4, and Escape from Tarkov is the same game as Golden Eye.

Guess I've been there and done that too.

But you know you're being disingenuous, so I guess we'll leave it at that.
It pretty much is the same with a new coat of paint. Nintendo doesn't really evolve much of anything aside from visuals and even then they're still back of the pack of any platform console or PC.
SpectralThundr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 11:03 PM   #27
Mozain
Fueled By Tits & Revenge
 
Mozain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Canada eh!
Posts: 874
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpectralThundr View Post
It pretty much is the same with a new coat of paint. Nintendo doesn't really evolve much of anything aside from visuals and even then they're still back of the pack of any platform console or PC.
Doesn't discount any of their new IPs sooooo...
Mozain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 11:32 PM   #28
SpectralThundr
Evil Dead
 
SpectralThundr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Boston/Ontario
Posts: 8,925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mozain View Post
Doesn't discount any of their new IPs sooooo...
splatoon and what else? Shit aimed at 7 year olds? Yeah at 42 that's totally the shit I wanna spend my little free time playing. As I've said to Pat and the rest of the Nintendo zealots before, if that's the shit you still want to play as an adult? Go for it.
SpectralThundr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 08:13 AM   #29
Mozain
Fueled By Tits & Revenge
 
Mozain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Canada eh!
Posts: 874
ARMS is another one.

But sure, let's leave those behind. Not every game is for everyone of course.

But what about Astral Chain? Haven't played it myself because I never bought a switch, but from my understanding it's a very good game not aimed at "7-year olds".

The point is if you can't talk about a game unless you have first hand experience, then we can't have this conversation. Where we differ is in the validity of the criticisms. Mine are more valid than "Pffft, looks like it's aimed at pedophiles, shit game..." which is why yours are often dismissed here. They have no substance and are repeated endlessly.

There's plenty of concerns to be had about Escape from Tarkov from a new/potential player perspective and they are clear from a mile away. But I'm not Booda, were the game free (to try even) I'd absolutely jump in and give it a shot, see for myself. But I'm not about to drop $60 CAD to give that a go... That's insane.
Mozain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 03:14 PM   #30
SpectralThundr
Evil Dead
 
SpectralThundr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Boston/Ontario
Posts: 8,925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mozain View Post
ARMS is another one.

But sure, let's leave those behind. Not every game is for everyone of course.

But what about Astral Chain? Haven't played it myself because I never bought a switch, but from my understanding it's a very good game not aimed at "7-year olds".

The point is if you can't talk about a game unless you have first hand experience, then we can't have this conversation. Where we differ is in the validity of the criticisms. Mine are more valid than "Pffft, looks like it's aimed at pedophiles, shit game..." which is why yours are often dismissed here. They have no substance and are repeated endlessly.

There's plenty of concerns to be had about Escape from Tarkov from a new/potential player perspective and they are clear from a mile away. But I'm not Booda, were the game free (to try even) I'd absolutely jump in and give it a shot, see for myself. But I'm not about to drop $60 CAD to give that a go... That's insane.
I never said you needed first hand experience, at the very least watch some gameplay before stating things that are so wrong it's not even funny at least in regards to EFT.
SpectralThundr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 03:47 PM   #31
BlackSabbath
Squire
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 19
https://youtu.be/9Qynwf4U_Jc
BlackSabbath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 05:43 PM   #32
vallor
Michael Bay Fanboi
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: I-90 Homeless Camp, Seattle, WA
Posts: 8,542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballistic. View Post
I'm not sure how being on an even playing field has anything to do with being hardcore or not. A level 5 player with an AKM or Mosin can easily ambush and kill a high level player with some of the best equipment in game.
If skill really determines level then what you describe here is PURE LUCK on the part of the level 5 player. People don't get to be high level players without knowing a few things, like how to check for most standard attack patterns, the maps, the weapons, spawn cycles and/or locations.

I have a feeling you have literally no idea how a game design caters to a demographic and how a negative feedback loop works. A game that is PVP and where you lose items is a bad setup for any sort of mainstream acceptance. If this developer is OK with shit numbers (and the matchmaking issues which come with them) then fine.
vallor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 06:45 PM   #33
Mozain
Fueled By Tits & Revenge
 
Mozain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Canada eh!
Posts: 874
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpectralThundr View Post
I never said you needed first hand experience, at the very least watch some gameplay before stating things that are so wrong it's not even funny at least in regards to EFT.
Who says I haven't? Though I will admit my tolerance for watching people play military sim games is about 5 minutes.

Hell I have like 4 friends (real-life ones) who pester me to buy the game every few weeks.

I tell them the same thing I say here.
Mozain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 09:19 PM   #34
BlackSabbath
Squire
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by vallor View Post
If skill really determines level then what you describe here is PURE LUCK on the part of the level 5 player. People don't get to be high level players without knowing a few things, like how to check for most standard attack patterns, the maps, the weapons, spawn cycles and/or locations.

I have a feeling you have literally no idea how a game design caters to a demographic and how a negative feedback loop works. A game that is PVP and where you lose items is a bad setup for any sort of mainstream acceptance. If this developer is OK with shit numbers (and the matchmaking issues which come with them) then fine.
Yes, a more experienced player is better at the game... i think we got that..... Getting to high level really has nothing to do with how well you kill other players in eft.

Since when is mainstream acceptance equates to a good game? COD game mechanics haven't changed in 10 years. Mobile market is filled with shit that people eat it up.
Hate to break it to you but most mainstream games are a definition of shit games.
Developers that are "OK with shit numbers" are the ones releasing creative original games.
BlackSabbath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2019, 08:09 PM   #35
vallor
Michael Bay Fanboi
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: I-90 Homeless Camp, Seattle, WA
Posts: 8,542
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSabbath View Post
Yes, a more experienced player is better at the game... i think we got that..... Getting to high level really has nothing to do with how well you kill other players in eft.
So what you are saying is you have no idea how a negative feedback loop works and how that is shit game design? No problem, just say it.



Quote:
Since when is mainstream acceptance equates to a good game?

<SNIP>

Developers that are "OK with shit numbers" are the ones releasing creative original games.
They might be releasing creative stuff but then they are scraping and scrimping for money, making staggered layoffs, then - odds are - all going belly up.

So you don't know how negative feedback loops are bad for game design NOR do you know anything about business.

Got it.
vallor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2019, 08:26 PM   #36
SpectralThundr
Evil Dead
 
SpectralThundr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Boston/Ontario
Posts: 8,925
Quote:
Originally Posted by vallor View Post
So what you are saying is you have no idea how a negative feedback loop works and how that is shit game design? No problem, just say it.





They might be releasing creative stuff but then they are scraping and scrimping for money, making staggered layoffs, then - odds are - all going belly up.

So you don't know how negative feedback loops are bad for game design NOR do you know anything about business.

Got it.
Niche titles won't ever do mainstream numbers. You should know this vallor. It doesn't mean they can't be profitable tho.
SpectralThundr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2019, 11:07 PM   #37
vallor
Michael Bay Fanboi
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: I-90 Homeless Camp, Seattle, WA
Posts: 8,542
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpectralThundr View Post
Niche titles won't ever do mainstream numbers. You should know this vallor. It doesn't mean they can't be profitable tho.
Oh, I agree. The point I am contesting is that the negative feedback loops built into this game (or any game) is bad design. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer with no way to equalize short of a wipe.

Then you have the statements from the advocates here that the user experience isn't diminished by crushing and punishing rule sets. They make it seem like the edge case is the norm and a weaker player is totally capable of defeating the pro on a regular basis.

However, the odds are seriously against that player because the elder player has gotten a ton of enhancements, have good game habits, know the terrain, and are much more experienced with the common tactics. On the other side the player with the weakest weapon in the game either is brand new or the feedback loop has robbed them of the opportunity or access to better gear.

In my experience this scenario of the weaker player killing the pro is an extreme outlier. If the player could consistently perform 1-shot kills with the weakest weapon in the game then they wouldn't be forced to be using that weapon, they clearly have the skills to progress.

Game history is littered with failed games which took this tactic because most players don't want to constantly get punished.

Jordan Peterson talks about Lobster mating and dominance habits they use against rival male Lobsters. The losers of these match ups are diminished psychologically for each loss until they eventually stops even trying. Humans have the same reaction in their lizard brain.

This game seems like a pointed simulation of those principles.

Some people argue that Dark Souls does the same thing but that is not true at all. Mainly, Dark Souls has very limited PvP options and the player has a good deal more control of the outcome of any battle. Outside of the limited PvP a player of Dark Souls is able to point directly to themselves for each death they accept.
vallor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2019, 11:35 PM   #38
SpectralThundr
Evil Dead
 
SpectralThundr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Boston/Ontario
Posts: 8,925
Quote:
Originally Posted by vallor View Post
Oh, I agree. The point I am contesting is that the negative feedback loops built into this game (or any game) is bad design. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer with no way to equalize short of a wipe.

Then you have the statements from the advocates here that the user experience isn't diminished by crushing and punishing rule sets. They make it seem like the edge case is the norm and a weaker player is totally capable of defeating the pro on a regular basis.

However, the odds are seriously against that player because the elder player has gotten a ton of enhancements, have good game habits, know the terrain, and are much more experienced with the common tactics. On the other side the player with the weakest weapon in the game either is brand new or the feedback loop has robbed them of the opportunity or access to better gear.

In my experience this scenario of the weaker player killing the pro is an extreme outlier. If the player could consistently perform 1-shot kills with the weakest weapon in the game then they wouldn't be forced to be using that weapon, they clearly have the skills to progress.

Game history is littered with failed games which took this tactic because most players don't want to constantly get punished.

Jordan Peterson talks about Lobster mating and dominance habits they use against rival male Lobsters. The losers of these match ups are diminished psychologically for each loss until they eventually stops even trying. Humans have the same reaction in their lizard brain.

This game seems like a pointed simulation of those principles.

Some people argue that Dark Souls does the same thing but that is not true at all. Mainly, Dark Souls has very limited PvP options and the player has a good deal more control of the outcome of any battle. Outside of the limited PvP a player of Dark Souls is able to point directly to themselves for each death they accept.
Tarkov isn't like that tho. Really. A lvl 1 totally could kill a lvl 50 with a well placed shot or two. It's far more skill based than most of these types of games imo anyway.
SpectralThundr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2019, 08:20 AM   #39
Ballistic.
Knight
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by vallor View Post
If skill really determines level then what you describe here is PURE LUCK on the part of the level 5 player. People don't get to be high level players without knowing a few things, like how to check for most standard attack patterns, the maps, the weapons, spawn cycles and/or locations.

I have a feeling you have literally no idea how a game design caters to a demographic and how a negative feedback loop works. A game that is PVP and where you lose items is a bad setup for any sort of mainstream acceptance. If this developer is OK with shit numbers (and the matchmaking issues which come with them) then fine.
It has nothing to do with luck. The great thing about EFT is that there is a very useful Wiki and offline mode where you can learn every square inch of the maps, spawn locations and best locations for ambushes against bots of varying difficulty levels - harder then human players, or just turn them off. You can learn how to fight and use weapons offline without the risk of losing gear and wasting ammo... if a person doesn't use this useful feature which is obvious when leading up a match, then they only have themselves to blame.

Also, you can play EFT in VERY different ways. You can Rambo the fuck out of it, or stealth it like I do until higher levels. My current level is about 33, nearing the soft level cap for max level traders and the ability to get most of the best gear in the game. I have killed less then 100 PMC's (players) in the last wipe, with most of my kills coming from Scavs (AI). You don't need to engage other players to level up, you just have to be careful - and you can get careful by learning how to play the game in the offline mode. Hell I suck at the game yet I still do relatively well at it as far as leveling goes and droping other PMC's when I have the opportunity.

The thing is, people like you, or those you are describing are NOT the target demographic for a game like this. It is punishing, but it does reward perseverance. It is not meant to be easy or hand hold you. It is niche, but there is clearly a market for that. If you haven't played it, then honestly, you haven't got a clue. Your interpretation of how you think the game plays is so far from the mark it's not funny.

Also, I worked in game and software development about 10 years ago, I know enough about design and target demographics to get by... who exactly do you think this game is targeting? It isn't the CoD crowd, or the BF crowd, or the Fortnite/Overwatch/Apex crowd, it's the original R6 and GR, OFP/Arma military sim crowd that like authentic punishing games. Clearly there is a market and demographic for a game like this or EFT would have packed up and fucked off a long time ago.
Ballistic. is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
escape from tarkov

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:16 PM.