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Old 01-10-2020, 04:57 PM   #5721
vallor
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The government can provide better services when it is competing with monopolies or very small markets. The free market really only works when there is lots of competition and other specific conditions are met. The free market isn't some magical panacea that solves all problems. Nothing is. Only ideological purists can believe in these kind of absolutes. They don't work in the real world.
I agree, the free market has a really great PR team but it has more limitations and pitfalls than some people are willing to see.

As far as Government, the economies of scale say there are somethings that, while perhaps not efficient, are best done by the government.

I don't want to go out solicit bids and evaluate them for my driveway, much less 50 miles of highway building and maintenance.

Private industry couldn't have gotten a Space Program launched. They do it today for the profit motive, and there wasn't any profit to be had in Space back in the 60s. National Security isn't something a private industry is interested in dumping hundreds of billions of their own dollars into so we can get some rocks off the moon.

There are so many other large scale problems Government solves, maybe in the worst ways possible sometimes, that no one else wants to deal with.
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Old 01-10-2020, 05:51 PM   #5722
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Why do monopolies exist? Because corporate lobby dollars to POLITICIANS allow it to be so.
Not all monopolies come from the federal government. There are natural monopolies too. The government didn't make Windows the dominant OS, but they certainly went after them for anti-trust violations.
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Old 01-10-2020, 06:25 PM   #5723
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DSL is land phone lines bro.
An excellent example to back up my point, thanks! DSL, the best innovation for internet on regular telephone lines, is not only the slowest way to get online, it's exponentially slower. And it was the best thing we had for a while (that and 58k baud modems) not because the innovation wasn't there, but because government regulations dissuaded companies from investing in improvements to infrastructure.

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Also all of those services you named are regulated by the government.
There is still some regulation true, but the times when government eased it are the times when innovation took off. Regulation is mainly to blame for slowing innovation. It kept AT&T a natural monopoly for the longest time by making it difficult for competition to come in. It was actually the easing of regulation that helped bring about competition in the telecommunications industry. But government didn't learn their lesson. The Telecommunications Act of 1996 was supposed to help with the deregulation, but instead it slowed down innovation by trying to punish monopolies. The results of that act made improving infrastructure too expensive (due to incumbents having to sell it to small companies at below cost), so the big companies stopped investing in it. As a result it took much longer to get high speed internet than it should have. And now the government is trying to make history repeat itself with Net Neutrality. Innovation happens when companies invest in it, and nobody is going to invest if it's not worth it. Apparently we would rather crawl along with cheap stuff today rather than flying and letting things eventually get cheaper tomorrow.

The government needs to let these companies do what they do best and stop hand-cuffing them.
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Old 01-10-2020, 07:09 PM   #5724
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An excellent example to back up my point, thanks! DSL, the best innovation for internet on regular telephone lines, is not only the slowest way to get online, it's exponentially slower. And it was the best thing we had for a while (that and 58k baud modems) not because the innovation wasn't there, but because government regulations dissuaded companies from investing in improvements to infrastructure.
Pretty sure your point was that land phone lines haven't seen any innovation in the last 40 years because of government regulations. So I guess now that you realize how wrong you were your new point is that while land based phone lines have seen significant innovation, it still isn't good enough because copper phone lines are fundamentally slower than cable infrastructure due to the laws of physics. Therefore government regulation is the problem, because the government regulates the physical laws of reality...?

Is that your new point? That copper based phone lines can't transmit data as fast as coaxial cable or fiber optics because it is physically impossible?

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There is still some regulation true, but the times when government eased it are the times when innovation took off. Regulation is mainly to blame for slowing innovation. It kept AT&T a natural monopoly for the longest time by making it difficult for competition to come in. It was actually the easing of regulation that helped bring about competition in the telecommunications industry. But government didn't learn their lesson. The Telecommunications Act of 1996 was supposed to help with the deregulation, but instead it slowed down innovation by trying to punish monopolies. The results of that act made improving infrastructure too expensive (due to incumbents having to sell it to small companies at below cost), so the big companies stopped investing in it. As a result it took much longer to get high speed internet than it should have. And now the government is trying to make history repeat itself with Net Neutrality. Innovation happens when companies invest in it, and nobody is going to invest if it's not worth it. Apparently we would rather crawl along with cheap stuff today rather than flying and letting things eventually get cheaper tomorrow.
Why would a company with a monopoly on cable infrastructure increase their speeds more than slightly above dsl? They have no competition and they can't have any competition. Your analysis of this entire situation is wrong, but I'm not going to get into it with you because you don't seem like you have looked into this deeply yourself. I mean you didn't seem to realize dsl is land phone lines, or that dsl has maximum speed restrictions far below cable due to the laws of physics.

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Old 01-10-2020, 08:46 PM   #5725
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Not all monopolies come from the federal government. There are natural monopolies too. The government didn't make Windows the dominant OS, but they certainly went after them for anti-trust violations.
Oh joy a single example in a sea of many. Disney ring a bell? How bout Comcast/NBC and all they own? How about Time Warner? And that's just a few off the top of my head that surely had lobby dollars behind them to avoid being broken up. It's like when they broke up Bell, they didn't go away, they just got rebranded into separate companies like Verizon and Century Link.
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Old 01-10-2020, 11:47 PM   #5726
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Pretty sure your point was that land phone lines haven't seen any innovation in the last 40 years because of government regulations.
Actually I'm pretty sure I asked "how much innovation", not "there hasn't been any innovation." But to be fair, let's check:

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Land phone lines are a utility regulated by the government. How much innovation in land lines has there been in the last 40 years would you say? What in land lines is different and improved today than back in 1980?
Hmm, sources say: You are lying. See how that works? You are not allowed to be mistaken or misread. If you say something factually incorrect, you are lying. I wish I could say otherwise, but these are your rules not mine.

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So I guess now that you realize how wrong you were your new point is that while land based phone lines have seen significant innovation, it still isn't good enough because copper phone lines are fundamentally slower than cable infrastructure due to the laws of physics. Therefore government regulation is the problem, because the government regulates the physical laws of reality...?

Is that your new point? That copper based phone lines can't transmit data as fast as coaxial cable or fiber optics because it is physically impossible?
Not at all. As a matter of fact, I agree with you there (see? consensus!)! My point was that they didn't upgrade the infrastructure (they didn't come up with technology to replace the copper phone lines) with something like fiber or cable because it wasn't economically viable.

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Why would a company with a monopoly on cable infrastructure increase their speeds more than slightly above dsl?
I've got one for you: Why would a company spend money on infrastructure if the government was just going to force them to sell that to competitors for a loss? Or break them up? Would you spend 80 hours a week on a AAA title if the government was going to force you to sell it for $5 because that's all poor people can afford?

(Honestly, I would rather have a drink and talk about game development than political bullshit, this stuff takes up too much of my time and goes nowhere... )
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Old 01-11-2020, 06:26 AM   #5727
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Actually I'm pretty sure I asked "how much innovation", not "there hasn't been any innovation." But to be fair, let's check:

Hmm, sources say: You are lying. See how that works? You are not allowed to be mistaken or misread. If you say something factually incorrect, you are lying. I wish I could say otherwise, but these are your rules not mine.

Not at all. As a matter of fact, I agree with you there (see? consensus!)! My point was that they didn't upgrade the infrastructure (they didn't come up with technology to replace the copper phone lines) with something like fiber or cable because it wasn't economically viable.
The phone companies could have been ahead of the game if they'd started upgrading their lines to fiber when DSL hit it's limit, but they didn't. Not for years and years.

Next thing you know other companies are setting up infrastructure and building technology to provide internet as well as VOIP. The phone stuff isn't as great as the solid connections you can get over a regular landline but it is good enough and everything is unified into one bill.

Now people buy their internet from Comcast or Warner (whatever they've branded themselves these days) and they lease bandwidth on their trunk lines to other players.

Verizon FIOS and Google Fiber are duking it out for the top spots for speed and I love it when I see an area that has FIOS or Google Fiber.

Where's AT&T? Where's QWEST? Where are ANY of the actual phone companies in this mess?

Only AT&T has made a credible entry into high speed internet among most of the old regional and national companies that managed landlines because they didn't start trying until too late and got their lunch eaten. I know ONE person who has a landline now.

Now was the question that the phone companies got complacent? Or were the government regulations preventing their innovation? I'd be interested to know if there was anything reasonable blocking QWEST from being a big internet provider instead of keeping up with the market.

Now QWEST is part of CenturyLink who, ironically, became one of the biggest providers of high speed internet and VOID in many of QWEST's territories before consuming QWEST in an acquisition.

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(Honestly, I would rather have a drink and talk about game development than political bullshit, this stuff takes up too much of my time and goes nowhere... )
Yeah! I love game development. I might start a thread...
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Old 01-11-2020, 06:15 PM   #5728
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The phone companies could have been ahead of the game if they'd started upgrading their lines to fiber when DSL hit it's limit, but they didn't. Not for years and years.

Next thing you know other companies are setting up infrastructure and building technology to provide internet as well as VOIP. The phone stuff isn't as great as the solid connections you can get over a regular landline but it is good enough and everything is unified into one bill.

Now people buy their internet from Comcast or Warner (whatever they've branded themselves these days) and they lease bandwidth on their trunk lines to other players.

Verizon FIOS and Google Fiber are duking it out for the top spots for speed and I love it when I see an area that has FIOS or Google Fiber.

Where's AT&T? Where's QWEST? Where are ANY of the actual phone companies in this mess?

Only AT&T has made a credible entry into high speed internet among most of the old regional and national companies that managed landlines because they didn't start trying until too late and got their lunch eaten. I know ONE person who has a landline now.

Now was the question that the phone companies got complacent? Or were the government regulations preventing their innovation? I'd be interested to know if there was anything reasonable blocking QWEST from being a big internet provider instead of keeping up with the market.

Now QWEST is part of CenturyLink who, ironically, became one of the biggest providers of high speed internet and VOID in many of QWEST's territories before consuming QWEST in an acquisition.



Yeah! I love game development. I might start a thread...
Century Link much like Verizon already had the technology because they were both part of bell labs to begin with. It helps when you have a leg up on smaller carriers and don't have to use R&D.

Google's another one, Alphabet inc.. Alphabet agencies.. hmm what a coincidence! Oh wait it's not a coincidence at all.
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Old 01-12-2020, 12:28 AM   #5729
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The phone companies could have been ahead of the game if they'd started upgrading their lines to fiber when DSL hit it's limit, but they didn't. Not for years and years.

Next thing you know other companies are setting up infrastructure and building technology to provide internet as well as VOIP. The phone stuff isn't as great as the solid connections you can get over a regular landline but it is good enough and everything is unified into one bill.

Now people buy their internet from Comcast or Warner (whatever they've branded themselves these days) and they lease bandwidth on their trunk lines to other players.

Verizon FIOS and Google Fiber are duking it out for the top spots for speed and I love it when I see an area that has FIOS or Google Fiber.

Where's AT&T? Where's QWEST? Where are ANY of the actual phone companies in this mess?

Only AT&T has made a credible entry into high speed internet among most of the old regional and national companies that managed landlines because they didn't start trying until too late and got their lunch eaten. I know ONE person who has a landline now.

Now was the question that the phone companies got complacent? Or were the government regulations preventing their innovation? I'd be interested to know if there was anything reasonable blocking QWEST from being a big internet provider instead of keeping up with the market.

Now QWEST is part of CenturyLink who, ironically, became one of the biggest providers of high speed internet and VOID in many of QWEST's territories before consuming QWEST in an acquisition.



Yeah! I love game development. I might start a thread...
The phone companies realized they make way better margins on limited cellular data plans, and cellular speeds are going to outpace cable in the next decade. Upgrading to fiber in reality means just running all new cables which isn't worth doing vs cellular for them, especially with the speeds from 5g and 6g. If we regulated cellular better this wouldn't be happening.
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Old 01-12-2020, 02:42 AM   #5730
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The phone companies realized they make way better margins on limited cellular data plans, and cellular speeds are going to outpace cable in the next decade. Upgrading to fiber in reality means just running all new cables which isn't worth doing vs cellular for them, especially with the speeds from 5g and 6g. If we regulated cellular better this wouldn't be happening.
And they still haven't innovated a thing in 30+ years. Sure go head and try and "force" companies to lay fiber. See how far that gets you. Communist. Besides 5g likely isn't that safe anyway. Course I'm sure proggies like yourself would chuckle at millions ending up dying of cancer. Less mouths for your authoritarian keepers to feed.
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Old 01-12-2020, 04:02 PM   #5731
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And they still haven't innovated a thing in 30+ years.
We just did this: modems, dsl, etc.

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Besides 5g likely isn't that safe anyway. Course I'm sure proggies like yourself would chuckle at millions ending up dying of cancer. Less mouths for your authoritarian keepers to feed.
Bizarre accusations aside. Idk if 5g is any safer than 4g, 3g, wifi, etc. The GOP is the main group pulling down regulations that protect our health though...
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Old 01-12-2020, 04:22 PM   #5732
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Century Link much like Verizon already had the technology because they were both part of bell labs to begin with. It helps when you have a leg up on smaller carriers and don't have to use R&D.

Google's another one, Alphabet inc.. Alphabet agencies.. hmm what a coincidence! Oh wait it's not a coincidence at all.
Considering US West (later renamed QWEST) came out of the Ma Bell split it had access to the same Bell Labs stuff all the other companies did at that time.

QWEST also was the beneficiary of huge tracks of territory, which it held a virtual monopoly on, including PAC BELL which was the 2nd biggest of the Bell sub-divisions.

QWEST had plenty of opportunity, research, and cash to continue R&D on their lines or move to new technology which obsoleted their current delivery methods. They just didn't because they figured nothing could replace a landline, and they were right until the end of the 90s when transfer speeds on newer tech overtook the ability of phone lines.
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Old 01-12-2020, 05:08 PM   #5733
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We just did this: modems, dsl, etc.



Bizarre accusations aside. Idk if 5g is any safer than 4g, 3g, wifi, etc. The GOP is the main group pulling down regulations that protect our health though...
Who's this we you speak of? Because you tend to give government credit for things the private sector does quite a bit.
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Old 01-12-2020, 05:09 PM   #5734
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Considering US West (later renamed QWEST) came out of the Ma Bell split it had access to the same Bell Labs stuff all the other companies did at that time.

QWEST also was the beneficiary of huge tracks of territory, which it held a virtual monopoly on, including PAC BELL which was the 2nd biggest of the Bell sub-divisions.

QWEST had plenty of opportunity, research, and cash to continue R&D on their lines or move to new technology which obsoleted their current delivery methods. They just didn't because they figured nothing could replace a landline, and they were right until the end of the 90s when transfer speeds on newer tech overtook the ability of phone lines.
Their own fault then for being lazy and refusing to innovate. What happened? They got swallowed up by another company willing to do the work.
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Old 01-12-2020, 05:15 PM   #5735
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And people cry tinfoil hat at the idea of Jews pushing rapugees on western countries. Yeah right.
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Old 01-12-2020, 07:39 PM   #5736
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Who's this we you speak of? Because you tend to give government credit for things the private sector does quite a bit.
Google facespace and twetter all enjoy protections from the federal gov.

Its the only reason they are where they are.

Take em to court, show the proof they are acting as a publisher and not a platform, watch the hilarity. They CANNOT censor the right without these protections. They would be sued till they were broke, or end up like DIGG in 2 years.
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Old 01-12-2020, 10:10 PM   #5737
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Who's this we you speak of? Because you tend to give government credit for things the private sector does quite a bit.
I don't understand what you are saying. Every actor we have been talking about is part of the private sector.
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Old 01-12-2020, 10:16 PM   #5738
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Considering US West (later renamed QWEST) came out of the Ma Bell split it had access to the same Bell Labs stuff all the other companies did at that time.

QWEST also was the beneficiary of huge tracks of territory, which it held a virtual monopoly on, including PAC BELL which was the 2nd biggest of the Bell sub-divisions.

QWEST had plenty of opportunity, research, and cash to continue R&D on their lines or move to new technology which obsoleted their current delivery methods. They just didn't because they figured nothing could replace a landline, and they were right until the end of the 90s when transfer speeds on newer tech overtook the ability of phone lines.
I have a feeling the economics don't work out. When you start talking about running fiber they are no longer a phone line company. They would have to re-deploy the entirety of their network, so why would they do it vs anyone else who could. It seems like when others have tried to run fiber(google) they realized the economics of it don't work that well. Especially when you look at the current pace of cellular technology. In like a decade cellular will be so fast all of these lines in the ground will be worthless, and putting up 100s of cellphone towers is much cheaper and much easier than running all this wire.

Their asset is their phone line network. If some technology can speed that up like dsl then they will do it. When you start talking about them recreating their entire network the economics probably fall apart.
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Old 01-12-2020, 11:36 PM   #5739
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I have a feeling the economics don't work out. When you start talking about running fiber they are no longer a phone line company. They would have to re-deploy the entirety of their network, so why would they do it vs anyone else who could. It seems like when others have tried to run fiber(google) they realized the economics of it don't work that well. Especially when you look at the current pace of cellular technology. In like a decade cellular will be so fast all of these lines in the ground will be worthless, and putting up 100s of cellphone towers is much cheaper and much easier than running all this wire.

Their asset is their phone line network. If some technology can speed that up like dsl then they will do it. When you start talking about them recreating their entire network the economics probably fall apart.
Googles issue is Comcast was deeply embedded into most of these places already, so they were always playing catch up. Must be great when you lobby politicians and in turn get to become a monopoly eh?
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Old 01-13-2020, 12:05 PM   #5740
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https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...mminent-threat

I agree with trump on the fundamentals here that he can kill Soleimani if he wants to. What I don't agree with is him lying to us and fabricating intelligence to justify military action. That is like Iraq all over again.

He should've just been real from the start. They attacked our embassy, this is the retaliation. He didn't need to make up intelligence about them planning 4 other imminent attacks. We shouldn't get led into war again based on fabricated bullshit.

I don't understand why he wasn't confident in his actions enough to just be real. Or maybe he is just so used to lying and making shit up he can't stop.
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