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Old 12-15-2017, 06:13 AM   #1
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The Last Jedi Discussion Thread

After a two year wait, The Last Jedi is finally in theaters; we get to see if some of the major questions are answered. Some are, others aren't...and one is answered with what I can only assume is a lie (possibly from a certain point of view).

Overall, I'm conflicted. I enjoyed the movie, but certain aspects of it left me feeling kind of empty. My biggest issue is that I fundamentally disagree with virtually everything about Luke Skywalker.

So...let the discussion begin! Let's consider this to be spoiler-friendly in advance; if you haven't seen the movie, you might want to look elsewhere.
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Old 12-15-2017, 08:08 AM   #2
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I expected nothing and was still let down. The First Order was a bunch of retards. The MCU jokes felt out of place. The original characters are all failures. The ship jumping to lightspeed and destroying the big ship was stupid. Snoke was a joke... hey it rimes. We now have confirmation that rey is the biggest mary sue since the original parody. Leia flying like superman was stupid. Poe making all the wrong decisions because penis and being told off by women because vagina was expected. The new force powers were unnecessary. Finn piloting a ship now because he now learned how to pilot ships? yup. The space chase was the most idiotic thing, how slow and boring can you make a chase scene? well, watch this and find out. And the one that left me with the biggest wtf, broom boy with rebellion ring, wtf!

The bomber scene was exciting, I liked it a lot. Kylo shooting up Poe's ship was cool. Snoke's red guard was pretty cool as well.

This is Star Wars for Transformers and MCU fans.
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Old 12-15-2017, 08:51 AM   #3
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People seem to forget that there was quite a bit of humor in the OT and most of the jokes felt authentic and "Star Wars". Others, like BB-8 piloting an AT-ST, felt like they were ripped right out of the prequels.

I liked that Snoke was killed because of how unimaginably arrogant he was. Plus, he needed to die for Kylo Ren's character arc and story to progress properly.

Kylo Ren was absolutely lying to Rey about her parentage. Her parents didn't die on Jakku because we've already seen their ship leaving after abandoning Rey.

I didn't mind Leia's "Superman moment" so much; she is, after all, Anakin's daughter. Luke's Force projection was pretty awesome, as well. Overall, I liked the new Force powers we saw.

The hyperspace jump into Snoke's ship was, frankly speaking, completely badass. I fucking loved that bit.

The slow chase was dull and the entire Canto Bite subplot could have been avoided entirely if Poe and Admiral Holdo had had precisely one conversation; all she had to do was tell him her plan ("Okay, so we're going to try to outrun them to this planet with an old Rebel base."). So, yeah...this part was pretty dumb.

Overall, I liked it well enough. There were just parts that don't sit well with me after one viewing.
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Old 12-15-2017, 08:56 AM   #4
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Was bored out of my mind from the last one and this looks awful. Will pass until Redbox.
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Old 12-15-2017, 09:09 AM   #5
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Was bored out of my mind from the last one and this looks awful. Will pass until Redbox.
If you were bored with TFA because of how similar it was to ANH...you don't really have to worry about that with the new one, as much. While there are certainly some similarities with ESB, it does plenty to subvert expectations.

It wasn't awful, by any stretch of the word. Of course, I also tend to shy away from the ridiculous hyperbole of modern commentary.
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Old 12-15-2017, 09:32 AM   #6
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I enjoyed it quite a bit.

Slow in the beginning and the characters were all pretty much vanilla. Nothing that really moved the needle. Luke was better than expected. Kylo and Rey, eh - ok and still better than the last one.

Definitely had anime/manga influences all over the place too. That hyperspace into the Dreadnaught was straight outta DBZ/StarBlazers/Anime - and it was kinda awesome.
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Old 12-15-2017, 09:46 AM   #7
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People seem to forget that there was quite a bit of humor in the OT and most of the jokes felt authentic and "Star Wars". Others, like BB-8 piloting an AT-ST, felt like they were ripped right out of the prequels.
Nope, I recently watched them all and they didn't have this many jokes.

Quote:
I liked that Snoke was killed because of how unimaginably arrogant he was. Plus, he needed to die for Kylo Ren's character arc and story to progress properly.
snore was one of the biggest mysteries in TFA, he turned out to be a cartoon villain. Something out of transformers.

Quote:
Kylo Ren was absolutely lying to Rey about her parentage. Her parents didn't die on Jakku because we've already seen their ship leaving after abandoning Rey.
Did you watch the movie? he tells her that she knows, and her expression wasn't of surprise but acceptance, she has been in denial all this time.

Quote:
I didn't mind Leia's "Superman moment" so much; she is, after all, Anakin's daughter. Luke's Force projection was pretty awesome, as well. Overall, I liked the new Force powers we saw.
Leia has no training in the force yet she can use it while unconscious, yeah right. It's even more stupid now that she will die in the next movie. Luke force projection was fail as well, it was a copy from total recall but stupid. And the matrix movements were oh so bad.

Quote:
The hyperspace jump into Snoke's ship was, frankly speaking, completely badass. I fucking loved that bit.
yup, it looked great but it was dumb because: why hasn't the rebellion used it instead of fighting all this time? kamikaze some random xwing pilot to his death so that you destroy a fucking cruiser. No need for all those pilots to die.

These two movies make the achievements of the characters in the originals worthless. Their characters retarded their progression because JJ thought he was making a remake instead of a sequel.

Quote:
The slow chase was dull and the entire Canto Bite subplot could have been avoided entirely if Poe and Admiral Holdo had had precisely one conversation; all she had to do was tell him her plan ("Okay, so we're going to try to outrun them to this planet with an old Rebel base."). So, yeah...this part was pretty dumb.
Yeah, this movie was filled with romantic comedies misunderstandings. The whole conflict is because they apparently lacked the ability to talk. Luke decides the best time to talk to someone is when he is sleeping, fucking idiot.
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Old 12-15-2017, 11:16 AM   #8
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If you were bored with TFA because of how similar it was to ANH...you don't really have to worry about that with the new one, as much. While there are certainly some similarities with ESB, it does plenty to subvert expectations.

It wasn't awful, by any stretch of the word. Of course, I also tend to shy away from the ridiculous hyperbole of modern commentary.
From what I heard from friends who saw it last night and the little I read it sounds like they borrowed more from Return of the Jedi. That's fine because there's a ton of stuff from it that deserves a retry. Unfortunately it doesn't sound like they succeeded. I bring it up all the time, but Mad Max Fury Road is the perfect example of borrowing from the originals and executing it almost flawlessly. Every update is great. For the most part newcomers and old fans aren't treated like idiots. I said for the most part because that's where the "almost flawlessly" comes in. I never once bought Furiosa's main objective and ultimate realization her home is gone because we had no backstory shown to us. It was literally yelled and that was it. Overall a small issue surrounded by a great picture.

The Force Awakens did nothing to grab me. Not one update (new bad guy, big thing to destroy, new heroes, returning old heroes, etc.) were done in any believable or exciting or funny or any kind of way. They were just there. None of the action scenes looked better or as good as anything done before. Also the soundtrack sucked.
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Old 12-15-2017, 11:27 AM   #9
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I hated this movie so much. Easily a contender for worst SW movie ever for me. Boring script, a disservice to the Luke character, no character development whatsoever, and Rian Johnson just basically said "fuck you" to every bit of framework that JJ Abrams setup for this trilogy. It felt like one giant reset.

Now, I had some problems with The Force Awakens, but I liked the movie overall. I hope that JJ can recover in episode 9.
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Old 12-15-2017, 01:30 PM   #10
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Critics really are out of touch nowadays.
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Old 12-15-2017, 01:38 PM   #11
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Critics really are out of touch nowadays.
The audience score is being dragged down by the angry fans who feel they have an ax to grind.

It's not my favorite of the bunch, I don't think...but, it's a far site better than what the audience score is implying. Most of the negative reviews are 1/2 a star and the text is easily summarized with, "I didn't like it! NYAAA!"
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Old 12-15-2017, 01:41 PM   #12
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The audience score is being dragged down by the angry fans who feel they have an ax to grind.

It's not my favorite of the bunch, I don't think...but, it's a far site better than what the audience score is implying. Most of the negative reviews are 1/2 a star and the text is easily summarized with, "I didn't like it! NYAAA!"
So, they are reflective of how they feel, they didn't like it so they give it 1/2 a star. Seems accurate.

edit:

one thing I don't remember very well is how Finn got back to the base. I remember him dragging the chinese girl's body through the door but I may be misremembering things. Anyone remembers how he got back?
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Old 12-15-2017, 01:49 PM   #13
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I want to start with: Puppet Yoda saved the day for me.

When I saw puppet Yoda bonk Luke on the head with his cane and start berating him my inner little kid crawled out and it let me forget about some of the bad parts of the movie for a while. It cauterized the wound left by teary big-eyed chicken things and stupid horse stampedes.

Disney seems to want to kill off stuff from the old trilogy. Like Kylo says; bury the past and start fresh. I guess that is Disney's mission with this and the only way they can do that is to burn everything from the OG Trilogy to the ground.

Anyway ranking: Better than the Christmas Special but I don't think it's as good as TFA.

Here's my scale:
  1. Empire
  2. New Hope (I was too young to appreciate this over ESB)
  3. Return
  4. Rogue One (this is really close with Return; for serious. Fucking Ewoks)
  5. The Force Awakens
  6. The Last Jedi
  7. The Star Wars Christmas Special (I was a kid, it made me happy so fuck off)
  8. Episode 3 (it was worth it for "NOOOOOOOOOOO!" meme that never stops giving)
  9. Anything else remotely resembling Stars or Wars. For example: BattleStar Galactica is a better Star Wars movie.
  10. Episode 2
  11. Episode 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimpbot View Post
People seem to forget that there was quite a bit of humor in the OT and most of the jokes felt authentic and "Star Wars". Others, like BB-8 piloting an AT-ST, felt like they were ripped right out of the prequels.
Totally agree. For the most part I think the humor fit in pretty well; BB-8 slapstick notwithstanding.

Quote:
Kylo Ren was absolutely lying to Rey about her parentage.
They put WAY too much foreshadowing between the Luke/Leia communication and the Rey/Kylo communication. I think her acceptance was she didn't think he would lie. What's a lie when he's already killed (probably) her father?

Quote:
I didn't mind Leia's "Superman moment" so much
Agree again. This needed to be stuck in people's heads with a very strong visual. Otherwise it is harder to believe Luke projecting himself across the galaxy and Rey lifting a big wall of rocks.

Plus people need to be reminded how awesome the Force is now and then. I also think it will be important in the next movie.

Quote:
The hyperspace jump into Snoke's ship was, frankly speaking, completely badass. I fucking loved that bit.
Amen to that. It made seeing the movie on the big screen worth the price of admission.

However it does seem odd this isn't used more often as a tactic. Why not build a drone fleet of 300 ships with just some hulls and hyperdrives, point and shoot. Nothing could shoot that many drones down and the hyperdrive wake would take down... anything of any size. Even if it isn't a single big shot a ton of micro-perforations would be just as bad.

Big enough drone fleet would negate a Death Star.

Quote:
The slow chase was dull and the entire Canto Bite subplot could have been avoided entirely.
They could have collapsed the Casino world scenes and the chase scenes and either added real meat to the story or cut 30 minutes. Rose and Finn could have bonded some other way. Cut the preaching to save 10 more minutes.

"But wait! It's more complicated than that because you use tools like X-Wings from the same people who run the whole Military Industrial Complex the New/1st Order gets their shit from."
"But that's different because we care and stuff and are good people and they are bad guys."
"Oh, ok. Well I guess if you put it that way. You got us; well played you feisty Good Guys!"

I continue to be disappointed by the lack of explanation of how Rey is taking on professional fighters, like the most elite of Snoke's Ninja Warrior guard, and, despite being barely awakened to her Force powers and with minimal training (that's being generous) is able to go toe-to-toe with Kylo Ren who had years of training with Luke and then more practice with Snoke after.

Anyway... I think we'll see some more surprises in the next movie.
  • Rey's true linage perhaps (Leia's deathbed confession?)
  • Finn and Rose surprise hookup or time for the love triangle signals where Rey thinks Finn has a thing for Rose when he really still loves her! We'll know for sure if a Taylor Swift song shows up on the soundtrack of the next movie
  • Does anyone in the galaxy actually give a shit about the rebellion or the New Order or the 1st Order or whatever the hell it is? Seems like with only 400 rebels left the arms business is going to dry up pretty fast.
  • How long till Kylo kills the General or vice versa. Or will they just pick split their CD collection down the middle and forget each other's cell number?
  • Are they really trying to Groom Poe to take over for Leia? Seems like a bit of a stretch considering he's only made 2 halfway good decisions so far and those look like they really hurt his brain. I mean, he really struggled with the whole noticing the foxes got out.

Anyway, already too long.
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Old 12-15-2017, 02:18 PM   #14
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However it does seem odd this isn't used more often as a tactic. Why not build a drone fleet of 300 ships with just some hulls and hyperdrives, point and shoot. Nothing could shoot that many drones down and the hyperdrive wake would take down... anything of any size. Even if it isn't a single big shot a ton of micro-perforations would be just as bad.

Big enough drone fleet would negate a Death Star.
People keep saying this, but I don't think it would really be a valid tactic. First, hyperdrives seem to be pretty damn expensive and the drones would have to be at least as big as a fighter for them to actually be equipped with one. Secondly, I'd be willing to bet the reason why Snoke's ship got so fucked up is because a capital ship crashed into it.

It would be an expensive, resource-intensive weapon. It was great as a last-ditch suicide mission, but employing something like that regularly wouldn't really seem feasible.

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So, they are reflective of how they feel, they didn't like it so they give it 1/2 a star. Seems accurate.
Meh. "Reviews" like that aren't much more than glorified temper tantrums; they're picking the lowest score possible.

Quote:
one thing I don't remember very well is how Finn got back to the base. I remember him dragging the chinese girl's body through the door but I may be misremembering things. Anyone remembers how he got back?
He basically hoofed it back to base, I believe. I think his timing was pretty much lined up with the First Order being distracted by Luke randomly showing up.

I did like how they employed a DBZ-styled "character walkes out of the smoke, unscathed from a massive attack while everyone stares agape" trope. It was kind of a nice touch.
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Old 12-15-2017, 02:32 PM   #15
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X-wings have hyperdrives. They could send kamikaze xwings. Cheaper than letting all your pilots die.
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Old 12-15-2017, 02:54 PM   #16
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I fall into the category of really, really disliking it.

I don’t think people understand what Disney’s point was with this film. The entire point is to undo the idea that Luke was The Chosen One And the idea that The Star Wars films are intrinsically tied to special people. People’s compliant about Rey was that she had no training and Dineys response is... yeah. That’s the point. The official stance is now that Jedi Training and Teaching is just Dogma and that all it really takes to be a Jedi is to believe in yourself. Anybody can be a Jedi. You just have to believe.

And thus Disney has infected the Star Wars universe with its weird, nebulous religion about “love” being the end goal of all things and anything being possible if you wish upon a Star. That’s literally the end shot of the film.

_—————-

But specifically, my problem with the film Iis that it’s not s film, it’s three. Each of the three main characters splits off and has their own adventure that is independent. It’s basically an anthology movie. And like all anthologies, they vary wildly in quality. The part anyone cares about is Rey and Luke, which is continuing the story of the two main characters, fommthe past two trilogies. Then we have Poe’s story which plays out like a television show with a decent effects budget. Then we have Finn and Roses’s story which should have been cut from the film entirely. And because Finn should have been cut, he now serves no purpose in The Force Awakens either.

It’s funny how the trailers, which I’m just now watching, clearly promote the film that everyone would have WANTED. Luke trains Rey. They have to fight Kylo. They have an adventure. Fin Poe and Rey are core characters.

... the movie we got is NONE of that.
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Old 12-15-2017, 03:48 PM   #17
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It would be an expensive, resource-intensive weapon. It was great as a last-ditch suicide mission, but employing something like that regularly wouldn't really seem feasible.
Sort of like building an arsenal of weapons so destructive they act as an inhibiting device to begin with? Something so powerful that the use would be so incredibly destructive no one would want to test that shit out? For example who wants to see the firepower of an armed and FULLY FUNCTIONAL DEATH STAR (add Palpatine cackle here) up close and personal?!?!?!!

We're talking about a guided missile with hyperdrive. So the first gen has to be the size of an X-wing (A-wing; it has a smaller footprint) but one of those guys on the Casino world will come up with something better fast.

And a thousand micro-perforations even in a big spaceship with a bunch of sensitive systems (especially if you have a GOOD guidance system and can target critical areas) will do as much damage as you need.

What we don't know is how shields are affected by a hyperspeed wake.

I also don't know why we're arguing about this in a movie where Moon sized Space Stations use circuit boards with diodes the size of my thumbnail but somehow they miniaturized the tech to make deadly hand-held laser guns and fit all the components to manipulate plasma energy into a small hilt and make fancy swords.

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The entire point is to undo the idea that Luke was The Chosen One And the idea that The Star Wars films are intrinsically tied to special people. People’s compliant about Rey was that she had no training and Dineys response is... yeah.
I think I mentioned this before. They're telling us through Kylo that it's time for the past to go away and everyone has to move forward. That's why they are burning the OG Trilogy to the ground the same way Yoda did the Jedi tree. That's why they had to wipe out all the other material, so they didn't have to keep the albatross of canon around their neck as they try to redo Star Wars. But they can't do it. Not for another 40 years anyway till the last person that saw the OG Trilogy in the theater on the first run dies off.

Plus the "chosen one" myth isn't destroyed here. It is reinforced. "Every time the dark rises the light creates a champion to bring balance." or whatever Snoke said. The same thing may have happened with Luke. Perhaps Snoke was to counter Luke OR maybe Kylo himself was the Force's response to Luke. Only Skywalker blood could best Skywalker blood.

Plus, if it was just as easy as wishing on a star and no training I'm sure Snoke wouldn't have gotten Luke's location out of Rey. She really, really didn't want to give that shit up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyHands
It’s funny how the trailers, which I’m just now watching, clearly promote the film that everyone would have WANTED. Luke trains Rey. They have to fight Kylo. They have an adventure. Fin Poe and Rey are core characters.
To paraphrase Luke. Everything you just said is... mostly RIGHT. I'd say it's really Finn, Rey, and Kylo. Poe, the General, and BB-8 to a lesser extent with Chewie, 3PO, and R2 as tokens for continuity. The rest are set dressing.

Last edited by vallor; 12-15-2017 at 04:02 PM..
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Old 12-15-2017, 04:45 PM   #18
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Wow, apparently back in April they made it official they will not be digitally adding Carrie Fisher to Episode 9 so TLJ is her final movie.

I wish I could say there was anything standout about it but what is there to say? It wasn't anything exceptional any more than when William Shatner or Leonard Nimoy reprised their roles as Kirk and Spock.

Mark Hamill is the same way. I never got into his voice acting enough to see him as anything other than Luke.

Carrie Fisher is Princess Leia if Princess Leia were a funny Drunk. A fouler mouth and a quick, biting wit. To me she never was anything else.

When I see the pictures of her from the Star Wars days it brings a tear to my eye.

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Old 12-16-2017, 03:31 PM   #19
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The audience score is being dragged down by the angry fans who feel they have an ax to grind.

It's not my favorite of the bunch, I don't think...but, it's a far site better than what the audience score is implying. Most of the negative reviews are 1/2 a star and the text is easily summarized with, "I didn't like it! NYAAA!"
Not a chance. That's a terrible movie. Everyone we were with agreed that it was just a bad movie. You could see it in the faces of the rest of the audience too and hear the comments as we left. 56% is being pretty generous. I would rate it about 35%.

Long and dull with lifeless action scenes and zero tension. And MaRey Sue is about the worst actress I've had the displeasure to sit through. Daisy is a terrible choice for the lead character. It should have been Finn or Poe as the new Jedi.
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Old 12-16-2017, 04:11 PM   #20
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The audience score is being dragged down by the angry fans who feel they have an ax to grind.

It's not my favorite of the bunch, I don't think...but, it's a far site better than what the audience score is implying. Most of the negative reviews are 1/2 a star and the text is easily summarized with, "I didn't like it! NYAAA!"

I guess I'm one of those guys then. I'm a Star Wars fan. Not a "super-fan", just a guy who grew up watching and loving the franchise.

This movie was trash. Pure, utter, unadulterated trash. I left the movie angry, which is something that has not ever happened with any other movie, let alone a Star Wars movie (even with the prequels). The others I saw the movie with who are far more casual Star Wars fans and more tolerant in their criticisms of movies also hated it.

I get why some, like Chimpbot, might call people out for not elucidating on why they disliked the movie. The plot, dialogue, and acting were all terrible. The cinematography and CGI, were, of course quite good, but the movie was unforgivably bad. I walked out of the theater and the first thing I said was that I never want to see another Star Wars movie again.

So Chimpbot, I would tell you what I disliked, but that would be all the parts between the "Lucasfilms" intro and the end credits. And for me to put out a point-by-point breakdown would be far longer and even more boring to read than what I have written up to this point.

I have said with the prequels and Indiana Jones 4 that George Lucas destroyed my childhood, but this takes it to a whole other level.

I just fail to understand why Hollywood, with their essentially unlimited budgets and talent continues to produce drivel such as this.
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