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Old 11-17-2017, 08:23 PM   #21
Terran
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...has no resale value.
You're a developer and you appear to have no idea of the secondary markets for in-game items in many, many, many games. That's a bit surprising. There is a huge resale market for in-game digital detritus.
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"...boys lining up outside a room to take a turn gang raping a woman?...I went to frat parties where shit like this was going down
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I certainly went to frat parties where girls were getting roofied
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Old 11-17-2017, 08:39 PM   #22
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You're a developer and you appear to have no idea of the secondary markets for in-game items in many, many, many games. That's a bit surprising. There is a huge resale market for in-game digital detritus.
In the games they are talking about there is no real secondary market. There is no reasonable way to sell cards in hearthstone.
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Old 11-17-2017, 08:44 PM   #23
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Hearthstone has literally not been mentioned yet in this thread, but okay, keep it up, this is really reinforcing your points...
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Old 11-17-2017, 08:45 PM   #24
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Is that the defining quality for gambling in your opinion? Is it even true?
It has to have real value. If it is reasonably difficult to turn it into cash people have generally not cared. Look at winning tickets from a skee ball machine and turning them into bouncy balls for example. Sure you could resell the bouncy balls or whatever, but it is so circuitous that no one cares.

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Old 11-17-2017, 08:47 PM   #25
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Hearthstone has literally not been mentioned yet in this thread, but okay, keep it up, this is really reinforcing your points...
You're right, I meant overwatch which is the same system where you can't withdraw value. Same as star wars 2.
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Old 11-17-2017, 08:55 PM   #26
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The key difference is that the amount of entertainment (value) you get from these things is based on pure chance, unlike when you purchase a video game. A loot crate might give you a weapon for a class you don't play, or a skin that you don't like, something that is effectively worthless, or it might give you something that is very worth while, all based solely on chance. The amount of entertainment value you get out of a game is not based solely on chance, but a meriod of other factors, many of which you directly control. I haven't bought a game that wasn't worth it to me in years, just by researching the games I buy before hand. I've effectively always gotten a reasonable amount of value for the input that I put in. Something that is very often not true in a system based on chance and never is the case in gambling.
I have absolutely bought tickets to movies I walked out of and games that I ended up not playing. Whenever you buy any entertainment item there is a huge chance element about how much you will enjoy the product. Lootboxes are not really very different. Poker has elements of skill to it like selecting videogames and movies to see. It is still gambling because you are playing to make money.

Unlike poker in this case though we are talking about the degree of chance in deriving entertainment out of a product. That is not why people gamble. They are trying to walk away with more money then they put into the device/game.
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Old 11-17-2017, 09:36 PM   #27
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Slots, video poker, lottery tickets are required to tell you your odds of winning. Not sure how one can define winning when it comes to a loot crate...
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Old 11-17-2017, 09:37 PM   #28
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It has to have real value. If it is reasonably difficult to turn it into cash people have generally not cared.
What exactly is real value according to you? It certainly doesn't just equal cash. Like Terran already pointed out, the prize for gambling could be goods, a service, money, it doesn't really matter, anything that has value.

Regardless of that, "people have generally not cared" is not an argument for whether or not it's gambling. A prime example being things like alchol or caffeine not beings seen as drugs, yet clearly fitting the definition of drugs.

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You're right, I meant overwatch which is the same system where you can't withdraw value. Same as star wars 2.
Overwatch has a substantially different business model and pricing scheme than battlefront 2. Regardless, there have been plenty of complaints about it being gambling. Hell, didn't Scherge on this very site complain quite a bit about the lootboxes in overwatch? I seem to recall he was annoyed about some aspect of them.

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I have absolutely bought tickets to movies I walked out of and games that I ended up not playing. Whenever you buy any entertainment item there is a huge chance element about how much you will enjoy the product.
Have you ever considered the possibilty that the reason for the first sentence is because you actually believe the second one to be true? Do your due diligence and there is no reason for that to happen often. I'll concede, that it does happen, but assuming that you do your part, it should be rare. Regardless, you wasting your money on products that aren't satisfactory, is different from the question of whether or not the method to acquire the product, constitutes gambling.

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Lootboxes are not really very different. Poker has elements of skill to it like selecting videogames and movies to see. It is still gambling because you are playing to make money.

Unlike poker in this case though we are talking about the degree of chance in deriving entertainment out of a product. That is not why people gamble. They are trying to walk away with more money then they put into the device/game.
I am an avid poker player with friends and family and yet I don't think I've ever played it to make money. But fair point, gambling can indeed involve a degree of skill. Lootboxes and random card packs do not however, they are puur chance. And still clearly gambling, regardless of how much you try and equate your poor purchasing decisions with lootboxes.

I also think you're underestimating the dopamine mechanisms that are involved in these kind of things. I think in a lot of case they are more important than the money aspect. That's why gambling is so additive, despite being one of the worst ways to make money.
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Old 11-17-2017, 09:45 PM   #29
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Loot boxes in any situation make me feel like garbage. Even the ones you got in BF4 for leveling.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:08 PM   #30
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Ah so the outrage is shifting away from EA to lootboxes? Wonder what yall will be mad about next week? If people want to waste their money let em. There is a time in every person's life where they have to be held responsible for their decisions, or are we only holding companies, celebrities, law enforcement, and politicians responsible for their actions now?
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:09 PM   #31
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What exactly is real value according to you? It certainly doesn't just equal cash. Like Terran already pointed out, the prize for gambling could be goods, a service, money, it doesn't really matter, anything that has value.

Regardless of that, "people have generally not cared" is not an argument for whether or not it's gambling. A prime example being things like alchol or caffeine not beings seen as drugs, yet clearly fitting the definition of drugs.
Things have value if you can convert them into cash. This is true of goods, services, money, gold, bitcoins, etc. This is not true of overwatch and star wars 2 goods. You could maybe argue it is true with stuff on steam but even in that case you are only trading entertainment for entertainment(steam funds, if you are selling skins at a 3rd party site for cash you are violating TOS and valve does work to crack down on that stuff).

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And still clearly gambling, regardless of how much you try and equate your poor purchasing decisions with lootboxes.
What you are saying here about bad choices doesn't matter. When you spend $50 on a game you are going to get a variable amount of entertainment out of it and your $/entertainment ratio is largely based on chance. Especially for online games. You might play player unknown for 1 hour, 60 hours or 1000 hours. It is hard to know and the hours of entertainment/dollar ratio can be drastically different. You have certainly bought games that you spent tons of time on for the same price as games that you spent not that much time on. You are gambling on the entertainment value of the title.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:09 PM   #32
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Stop giving government agencies power over everything and they wont have power to abuse a week from now when it's something else.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:12 PM   #33
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Guess we better throw that tax payer money at regulating toy capsules and bubble gum machines.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:15 PM   #34
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Stop giving government agencies power over everything and they wont have power to abuse a week from now when it's something else.
But but who will solve all the liberals problems if the government doesn't do it? Like cracking down on speech they don't like, or confiscating people's guns?

Fascism is hip according to the left, just look at BLM, Antifa, and CAIR.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:20 PM   #35
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But but who will solve all the liberals problems if the government doesn't do it? Like cracking down on speech they don't like, or confiscating people's guns?

Fascism is hip according to the left, just look at BLM, Antifa, and CAIR.
I miss when the internet wasn't full of moral outrage over everything. Remember when you just didn't waste your money on shit that sucked ass and if you did you felt like an idiot and asked yourself what you could have done to prevent this. Now when people feel stupid they start an internet mob and scream about about how the government needs to take responsibility for them, while screaming about the FCC abusing its power. And the worst part is the fact that people keep falling for this shit because "this time it will be different" or theyre manipulated into taking a small victory that serves to screw them over in the long run.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:24 PM   #36
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I miss when the internet wasn't full of moral outrage over everything. Remember when you just didn't waste your money on shit that sucked ass and if you did you felt like an idiot and asked yourself what you could have done to prevent this. Now when people feel stupid they start an internet mob and scream about about how the government needs to take responsibility for them, while screaming about the FCC abusing its power.
There is a pretty big difference between these optional entertainment purchases and monopoly internet providers dicking us over. There is generally no alternative choice. If they want to spy on you, or inject ads on every webpage, or throttle netflix its not like you can just switch providers really...
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:27 PM   #37
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There is a pretty big difference between these optional entertainment purchases and monopoly internet providers dicking us over. There is generally no alternative choice. If they want to spy on you, or inject ads on every webpage, or throttle netflix its not like you can just switch providers really...
You don't see the irony here?
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:28 PM   #38
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There is a pretty big difference between these optional entertainment purchases and monopoly internet providers dicking us over. There is generally no alternative choice. If they want to spy on you, or inject ads on every webpage, or throttle netflix its not like you can just switch providers really...
You miss a key word here, Optional, no one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy loot boxes, hell no one is forcing you to buy the game at all in the first place. Leave it to a progressive like yourself however to want big daddy government to run to your rescue about your latest 1st world outrage however.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:35 PM   #39
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You miss a key word here, Optional, no one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy loot boxes, hell no one is forcing you to buy the game at all in the first place. Leave it to a progressive like yourself however to want big daddy government to run to your rescue about your latest 1st world outrage however.
Wait I think we shouldn't regulate loot boxes or allow the govt to get involved. I just think we should keep net neutrality because in 2017 having the internet is really not optional for most people.
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Old 11-17-2017, 11:16 PM   #40
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Wait I think we shouldn't regulate loot boxes or allow the govt to get involved. I just think we should keep net neutrality because in 2017 having the internet is really not optional for most people.
Goddamn, I love this site. You spend the entire thread arguing against increased govenment intervention, then make one comment for it and immediatedly get pilled on top of for the worst crime possible around here, being a progressive. It's hillarious.

Anyway, it's clear we're not going to agree on this, but there is one more thing I was wondering about that you hadn't answered yet: Real world, not digital, collectible card games like pokemon or magic the gathering, that are often sold in packs of random cards. These days most of them are sold in semi random packs I think, like your garaunteed to get say 10 common cards, 3 mediums and 1 rare in each pack, but completely random within the rarities. The actually value of the cards is still up in the air though, thanks to the meta of the game at any given moment certain commons or rare may be worth much more or less because of their desirability. One of the stores I play warhammer at buys and sells these kind of cards. I've literally seen whales buying like 10 packs at a time, opening and sorting through them, picking a handful of cards to keep, and then immediatedly selling the vast majority for a fraction of the price they just paid minutes ago back to the guy that just sold them, and then rinse and repeat this for hours on end. Does that count as gambling? I mean you can just see the dopamine hit each time they tear open a pack, followed by the inevitable dissapointment, much like watching people pulling those levers on the slot machines.
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