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Old 07-18-2007, 12:56 PM   #21
CapnBob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlyingOrc
I'm coming across much more harshly than I intend because of how tired I am, sorry about that.

I can't watch your video at work, I'm sure you have some interesting ideas.

It just feels like you're saying "Hey! Developers! You guys are dumb and can't make good shooter games! Here's how you should do it!" I was merely showing that there IS at least one good shooter coming out, with a good control scheme.
No, I'm saying "HEY, DEVELOPERS! Some of us aren't ever going to like the bounding box. Can we choose from alternate aiming methods, like games used to let us do? Here's the optional control type that would work best for me."
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:05 PM   #22
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Very cool video. I like the concept myself.
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:12 PM   #23
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Send the video to Nintendo and explain it to them.
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:15 PM   #24
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My only concern would be tilting the nunchuck left or right while manipulating the analog stick. Something tells me moving both at the same time could be difficult.
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:30 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sm!le
My only concern would be tilting the nunchuck left or right while manipulating the analog stick. Something tells me moving both at the same time could be difficult.
You probably wouldn't do much of that, and if you did it would mostly be pressing forward and tilting at the same time. Still, that's just the optional method I would choose, you could also set the analog stick to walk/turn and strafe by some other method. You could technically strafe by turning to the side, then turning your headlook back and do it that way, but I'd prefer to have a simple strafe direction command. And I still think turn with analog stick, strafe with balance board would be the best.
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:39 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sm!le
My only concern would be tilting the nunchuck left or right while manipulating the analog stick. Something tells me moving both at the same time could be difficult.
Try playing SSX Blur. It is exceptional.

I believe Marvel Ultimate Alliance uses tilting the nunchuck left and right to control the camera while you tilt the thumb stick to control your little dude.
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Old 07-18-2007, 02:01 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamalot
Try playing SSX Blur. It is exceptional.

I believe Marvel Ultimate Alliance uses tilting the nunchuck left and right to control the camera while you tilt the thumb stick to control your little dude.
It's a difficult input to explain and even with the video it seems that a large percentage of people on other forums have a hard time grasping it, but then most of them don't seem to comprehend exactly what the headlook function is either.
I thought about making tilting the strafe, using a button to toggle strafing, holding down a button to turn and tilting exactly the number of degrees you want to turn from the position that you started pressing, tilting the wiimote instead of the nunchuck to turn (ended up preferring to use that to lean around corners), and a few other options like a button to turn the body towards whatever angle you're looking in, but after listing the advantages and disadvantages of each I settled on the doorknob approach as the one I would want to use in a deathmatch.

The only potential remaining downside for my own personal usage is potential wrist pain issues, but I think the headlook should decrease the amount of turn down to the bare minimum.
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Old 07-18-2007, 02:06 PM   #28
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I don't understand the look function of the pointer...to me that is still using the bounding box. If i use the pointer to look left then why would you keep me from being able to move left by pushing forward on the analog stick. I think the trick with this control scheme would be to keep the targeting ridicule centered at all times so while your aiming you u are also "looking".
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Old 07-18-2007, 02:07 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnBob
It's a difficult input to explain and even with the video it seems that a large percentage of people on other forums have a hard time grasping it, but then most of them don't seem to comprehend exactly what the headlook function is either.
I thought about making tilting the strafe, using a button to toggle strafing, holding down a button to turn and tilting exactly the number of degrees you want to turn from the position that you started pressing, tilting the wiimote instead of the nunchuck to turn (ended up preferring to use that to lean around corners), and a few other options like a button to turn the body towards whatever angle you're looking in, but after listing the advantages and disadvantages of each I settled on the doorknob approach as the one I would want to use in a deathmatch.

The only potential remaining downside for my own personal usage is potential wrist pain issues, but I think the headlook should decrease the amount of turn down to the bare minimum.
I think you've done a fabulous job. I wonder if there is a way to demo your ideas using GlovePIE. I'd love to download the scripts and give it a try for myself as sometimes the best-sounding ideas on paper could use refining in reality.
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Old 07-18-2007, 02:11 PM   #30
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For me it just complicates things to separate turning from headlook, while allowing both to give the appearance of turning. I think it would be more confusing than intuitive.

But while I disagree that given the choice, the playing field would be "dominated by players who used the headlook style", I think some players may see it as a valid choice. I'm all about multiple control schemes.
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Old 07-18-2007, 02:30 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamalot
I think you've done a fabulous job. I wonder if there is a way to demo your ideas using GlovePIE. I'd love to download the scripts and give it a try for myself as sometimes the best-sounding ideas on paper could use refining in reality.
I may have to do something like this, the main problem is that I don't know any 3D coding at all. I can do 3D animation and simple coding for actionscript, but I haven't learned direct X or openGL or anything. I've seen a couple of interesting suggestions, the most intriguing of which features a fixed-center targeting reticule and a second pointer that can grab the screen and shift it like a mouse. Could look confusing, but might be good for games with a tactical component, but you couldn't switch the wiimote to other functions on the fly like you could with this control scheme.
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Old 07-18-2007, 02:31 PM   #32
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First, props on the video. Excellent presentation of your concepts. However, I've never been convinced that the Wii's ability to detect tilting of controllers (either piece) is sufficiently accurate/consistent for a control scheme like yours.
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Old 07-18-2007, 02:36 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Sense Field
I don't understand the look function of the pointer...to me that is still using the bounding box. If i use the pointer to look left then why would you keep me from being able to move left by pushing forward on the analog stick. I think the trick with this control scheme would be to keep the targeting ridicule centered at all times so while your aiming you u are also "looking".
...yeah, I agree that you don't understand. If the analogstick moved in whatever direction you looked and the reticule was centered at all times, the only way you'd know that you weren't pointing where the IR sensor could see the sensor bar is when you suddenly find that you can't make yourself turn. There IS an invisible box where you lose control and that's not going to magically disappear because it's fundamental to the hardware design, so what I mocked up was something that uses a metaphor of human anatomy (the neck) to embrace that constraint and not leave you wondering where you're pointing in relation to that invisible barrier.
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Old 07-18-2007, 02:47 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaedalusFolly
First, props on the video. Excellent presentation of your concepts. However, I've never been convinced that the Wii's ability to detect tilting of controllers (either piece) is sufficiently accurate/consistent for a control scheme like yours.
well, you could use an analog style of turning if that's an issue. It doesn't hinge on the turning method, I just animated the explanation because it's very very difficult to describe.
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Old 07-18-2007, 02:51 PM   #35
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Glanced through it, no thanks.

It takes enough effort to hold the control stable the way it is throughout an entire game, much less worrying about tilt. There's something to be said for comfort.
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Old 07-18-2007, 03:00 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnBob
...yeah, I agree that you don't understand. If the analogstick moved in whatever direction you looked and the reticule was centered at all times, the only way you'd know that you weren't pointing where the IR sensor could see the sensor bar is when you suddenly find that you can't make yourself turn. There IS an invisible box where you lose control and that's not going to magically disappear because it's fundamental to the hardware design, so what I mocked up was something that uses a metaphor of human anatomy (the neck) to embrace that constraint and not leave you wondering where you're pointing in relation to that invisible barrier.
I don't think you understand to be honest. I'm talking about using your 90 degree method with the left hand to turn and using the remote to aim and look just only with the target centered at all times. so you would not be turning with the remote in any way shape or form and you would not be moving a curser around the screen rather you would be moving the entire view on the screen to aim.

To be more clear: what you described in response to my first post is exactly the flaw that I find in your control scheme. when you look around the target bounces around the screen and is NOT always centered.so if i look left my target is toward the left of the screen and if i pressed forward on the analog it would make me move forward (to the left). If this is not how it worked then i would have to stop looking to the left and center my view and then turn. That makes no sense. what does make sense is using your turning method with a fixed target that moves your entire view when you aim. I'm talking halo type target and your talking lost planet default controls target. so basically what i'm saying is for this to work your target has to always be in the center of the screen.

That said...you need to calm yourself because you are way to argumentative/rude in your posts. People are discussing, not shooting down your work. try discussing with them as opposed to arguing with them
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Old 07-18-2007, 03:01 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rirath
Glanced through it, no thanks.

It takes enough effort to hold the control stable the way it is throughout an entire game, much less worrying about tilt. There's something to be said for comfort.
Yeah, except you could map turning to the analog stick instead if that was an issue.
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Old 07-18-2007, 03:06 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sense Field
I don't think you understand to be honest. I'm talking about using your 90 degree method with the left hand to turn and using the remote to aim and look just only with the ridicule centered at all times. so you would not be turning with the remote in any way shape or form and you would not be moving a curser around the screen rather you would be moving the entire view on the screen to aim.
How would you aim up or down, then? And if you keep pointing at the center of the screen, that's how it would work now anyway. If you disable the headlook, it works exactly as you just described and has the added benefit of removing the ability to look and aim freely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sense Field
That said...you need to calm yourself because you are way to argumentative/rude in your posts. People are discussing, not shooting down your work. try discussing with them as opposed to arguing with them
I suggest you stop using the word "ridicule" then. It doesn't mean what you think it means.
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Old 07-18-2007, 03:16 PM   #39
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so sorry about using the wrong word...My mac corrects my spelling as i type. but thank you so much for pointing that out! i'll be sure to not make that mistake again.

so maybe you won't be suck a dick anymore? because really no one here is trying to ridicule your control method. We want a working first person wii control just as much as you.

to aim up and down you point the remote up and down...but the whole screen shifts your view up and down...go play halo...the TARGET is always centered and your view is constantly changing as you aim at different enemys.

go play lost planet...your TARGET is free roaming in that game and it sucks. you have to change the control scheme to get it to stay put in the center.

I can't wait for your next post!
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Old 07-18-2007, 03:22 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnBob
I suggest you stop using the word "ridicule" then. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

oh and also you pointing out my miss use of the word ridicule (my mac auto correcting my misspelling of reticule) in response to my pointing out that frankly, your being a dick? that makes no sense. one issue has nothing to do with the other.
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