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Old 08-27-2018, 08:31 AM   #21
Sinistar
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Originally Posted by AlfredT View Post
From someone not in the USA, the perspective around the world isn't that you have guns and violence in popular media thus making your populace violent. No one really believes that rhetoric unless they are using it to make a (usually leftist) political stand.

But the ease of access to guns combined with a willingness to go on shooting sprees seems recently unique to the USA.

TLR its not the games with guns that seem to have the problems, but the actual real life ease of access to weapons. Bla bla bla you can make the argument about UK knife violence, or the Toronto Van Rampage, but reality is that if those assholes (the terrorist, the douchebag, the incel etc) had the ease of access to the varied weps in the USA, the rest of the world also would catch up to the state's gun related murder sprees.

But fuck all that right, 2nd amendment!
Brother, you are 100% on point, thank you!

Sadly, when the NRA is politically "untouchable" regardless of national outcry I see very little changing.

We have elections here in Florida tomorrow and there are a few candidate that are running on a platform of "Let's keep our children safe by allowing guns in schools.". That's crazy town!

This is a direct result of decades of working towards dumbing down society. It takes a few decades but eventually you have a populace that is borderline dumb.

Even more pathetic is that while you post something of truth and with welcomed insight you can bet that the alt-righters here on EvAv - Terran and the ilk - will chime in with their idiotic shenanigans in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...
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Old 08-27-2018, 08:32 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by AlfredT View Post
TLR its not the games with guns that seem to have the problems, but the actual real life ease of access to weapons. Bla bla bla you can make the argument about UK knife violence, or the Toronto Van Rampage, but reality is that if those assholes (the terrorist, the douchebag, the incel etc) had the ease of access to the varied weps in the USA, the rest of the world also would catch up to the state's gun related murder sprees.
The thing people conveniently leave out is that guns are significantly harder to get than they were 50 years ago. Back in the day, you could walk into a hardware store and walk out with a firearm, but things have gotten increasingly more strict since the Gun Control Act of 1968. The fact of the matter is that firearms are currently harder to get than they've ever been, yet we're only now facing the sort of violence we're currently experiencing.

This sort of shit wasn't happening 30 years ago, so why is it happening now? It's not because guns are easy to acquire, because that's a process that has only become more difficult over the years.
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Old 08-27-2018, 09:21 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by AlfredT View Post
From someone not in the USA, the perspective around the world isn't that you have guns and violence in popular media thus making your populace violent. No one really believes that rhetoric unless they are using it to make a (usually leftist) political stand.

But the ease of access to guns combined with a willingness to go on shooting sprees seems recently unique to the USA.

TLR its not the games with guns that seem to have the problems, but the actual real life ease of access to weapons. Bla bla bla you can make the argument about UK knife violence, or the Toronto Van Rampage, but reality is that if those assholes (the terrorist, the douchebag, the incel etc) had the ease of access to the varied weps in the USA, the rest of the world also would catch up to the state's gun related murder sprees.

But fuck all that right, 2nd amendment!
What's currently being reported (which may or may not be accurate) is that the shooter lived in Baltimore, Maryland. Maryland is known for having strict firearms laws in comparison to many other states. The shooter was reportedly 24 years old. Since 2013, to purchase a handgun in Maryland, it's required that the buyer obtain a Handgun Qualification License (HQL). This process requires that the buyer have taken an approved firearm course and that they pay an additional $50 to be finger printed, with a background check performed. This background check is just to obtain the license and not an actual firearm. Maryland, since 1966, hasn't allowed its residents (or other Americans) to go into an FFL, purchase a handgun and leave that day with it. For private sales, "regulated firearms," which includes handguns and other firearms, must go through an FFL when making a purchase, which requires a background check.

The shooter was most likely - although I haven't seen much in the way of details - concealed carrying his firearm when he was in Florida. Florida does not recognize Maryland's concealed carry permit as being legal, thus if the shooter had a MD ccw, he would not have been legally able to carry. It's possible that he had a ccw from another state which granted him the ability to legally carry. However, seeing as it's illegal to murder people, it doesn't stand to reason that he felt the need to jump through legal hoops to commit murder.

Where/when did he obtain this firearm? What mode of travel did he utilize to get to Florida? How many laws, assuming he was transporting a firearm, did he break while doing that?

As for other countries catching up to the United States, you seem unaware of the situation of a country bordering the United States: Mexico.

Yahoo: Mexico murder rate soars with 7,667 killed in 3 months
LA Times: Mexico opened 2,599 homicide investigations in July — the most ever recorded in a month

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Quote:
Mexico’s gun laws are similar to those in countries like the United Kingdom that do not tolerate possession of certain lethal firearms. This is in stark contrast to the laws of the United States, whose constitution allows citizens to generally own and carry firearms on their person
At Mexico's Lone Gun Shop, Army Oversees Sales
Quote:
According to the federal Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, there are roughly 54,000 licensed gun dealers in the U.S. In Mexico there is only one.

Mexico's lone gun shop is on a sprawling military compound in the capital that serves as the headquarters of the Mexican army. It's sort of as if the only place in the United States to buy a gun was in a back office at the Pentagon.

Soldiers stand guard at the metal detectors at the shop's entrance.

Inside, handguns and rifles are displayed behind glass in long wooden cabinets.

Mexican Army Lt. Col. Raul Manzano Velez runs the shop. He explains that ordinary citizens can buy only one handgun. It must stay inside the home where it's registered and it can't be larger than a .38 special.

"They can buy a .22-caliber pistol or revolver up to a .38 special," he says. "It's very limited in Mexico the models available in these calibers."

Hunting and sport rifles can be transported, but they are also heavily regulated.

Javier Manuel Irineo, who is looking through the cabinet glass at some .22-caliber rifles, is a fairly typical customer. He is a farmer and wants a gun to protect his fields.

"I want something to shoot the animals that have been eating my corn," he says.

He says he thinks the regulations in Mexico are reasonable.

To buy a gun in Mexico you first have to fill out some forms. Then your employer has to fill out some forms. And all these forms have to get sent to the army, which decides whether you are eligible to have a gun.

Manzano says if there are no problems, an application can be processed in about a week. But to pick up the firearm, the buyer has to come to this shop in the capital.

"At the moment they come into the shop we take their fingerprints and enter all their information into an electronic database," he says.

Even someone near the U.S. border would have to travel here in person to legally buy a weapon. From Tijuana that would be a two-day bus trip — in each direction.

Manzano says only 7,000 to 8,000 weapons are sold legally in Mexico each year and that includes sales to private security firms.

Yet last year, Mexican authorities seized almost 30,000 weapons that were in the hands primarily of the drug cartels.

Adrian Franco Zevada with the Mexican attorney general's office says gun smuggling from the U.S. is undermining Mexico's efforts to fight organized crime.

"It's quite a hassle to legally own and legally purchase guns in Mexico," he says. So the cartels are getting their weapons, according to Franco, in the U.S.

Close to two-thirds of the firearms seized in Mexico are sophisticated rifles and assault weapons — AK-47s, R-15s, .50-caliber Barretts, Mexican authorities say.

"These are guns that are not made for recreational purposes," Franco says. "These are guns of war." He says guns from the U.S. are arming criminal organizations in Mexico. And he says this is a huge problem that needs to be addressed.

Inside Mexico's only gun store, they actually have some of these weapons Franco refers to — in cabinets that are clearly marked "for government forces only."
Yet another reason to pursue greater border security -- for both countries.
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Old 08-27-2018, 10:06 AM   #24
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Old 08-27-2018, 11:19 AM   #25
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Brother, you are 100% on point, thank you!

Sadly, when the NRA is politically "untouchable" regardless of national outcry I see very little changing.

We have elections here in Florida tomorrow and there are a few candidate that are running on a platform of "Let's keep our children safe by allowing guns in schools.". That's crazy town!

This is a direct result of decades of working towards dumbing down society. It takes a few decades but eventually you have a populace that is borderline dumb.

Even more pathetic is that while you post something of truth and with welcomed insight you can bet that the alt-righters here on EvAv - Terran and the ilk - will chime in with their idiotic shenanigans in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...
That's an easy prediction to make. If they don't shout out their thoughts constantly they might run the risk of having to examine them if they stick around.
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Old 08-27-2018, 11:33 AM   #26
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That's an easy prediction to make. If they don't shout out their thoughts constantly they might run the risk of having to examine them if they stick around.
Yeah because wanting to follow federal law in regards to illegals and respect the Constitution is oh so outrageous. Please commie, move, the US doesn't want or need you.
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Old 08-27-2018, 12:55 PM   #27
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Not having access to firearms has done a hell of a number on too many civilian populations to count, even in recent years. It doesn't matter if it is 1st world or 3rd but the disturbing trend of how a government treats it's population when they can't fight back is clear.

The criminals will find a way to either get the guns or otherwise hurt, kill, or otherwise enact their evil.

While every mass civilian killing with a firearm is tragic, and I cannot even put myself into the shoes of people there or who have been touched by such a think we do know tens of millions were killed when they were disarmed by their government.

We know today populations are completely at the mercy of their government for defense with even secondary tools of defense being illegal. We also know the governments are quite brazen about abusing their populations should they get persnickety and "disappearing" people like in Cuba and more recently the massacres in Venezuela.

So yeah. I look at "Great" Britain and their London murder rate higher than New York, despite a gun ban so now they have to go after knives; I look at draconian German and Netherlands police arresting and fining people over "hate" speech on their Facebook pages.

I look at mass murder by the Venezuelan forces as the starving people see the fat cats eating and driving and the police abusing their power, and able to do so with impunity, because the population was disarmed.

I look at 50+ years of Cuban abuse, prisons, torture, and killing all enabled because the government are the only ones with the weapons.

Brazil is one of the most deadly countries in the world despite having serious limits on firearms. How would that change if people could legally defend themselves and not be beholden to a single authority who, let's face it, doesn't have it in their best interest to make a their speedy way over to get in the middle of a fight at the high probability of death themselves?

And then I see tragedy in Jacksonville Florida and I think of the blood price we pay to not be London, Cuba, Venezuela, Germany, or the Netherlands and I thank god for the 2nd amendment while I hope we can think of reasonable ways to curtail gun violence without going nuclear and getting rid of the 2nd amendment.

But it seems like no one wants to have that conversation in our "all or nothing" world. "Common sense" gun control is just code for "let's unearth our talking points from before that we knew were unpalatable then but now that the blood scent is in the air we'll try to push them through even though the same arguments are still valid".

And, you might be surprised to hear, the NRA has actually be for more limitation on the 2nd Amendment than they've been against. I don't think anyone who really knows the history of the NRA could call them the devil when it comes to pro-gun legislation. They've been the backers of some of the worse gun legislation in... every.

On the other hand they are also a pretty neutral organization. They don't really care if you are left or right. They will give their support to the people who tend to back the 2nd amendment. So in that respect they are, at least, one of the more honest groups out there.
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Old 08-27-2018, 01:21 PM   #28
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The guy was a mentally ill leftist anti-Trumpster from one of the toughest states in the nation to get a gun in (Maryland, for the most part run by Democrats for decades) at an event without any real security. You already had the blue-state (MD) opportunity to stop him, leftists. You failed.

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<excellent points, backed up by data as always.>
Appreciate your efforts heartily, but I highly doubt facts and data are getting through the thickly encrusted mental illness that coats the left.
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Old 08-27-2018, 07:28 PM   #29
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This is an anomaly in a sea of anomalies.

Apparently the person was on antipsychotic medication, anti-depressants and, as a teenager, had a history of mental health issues serious enough to require his check-in into a psychiatric care facility. All of which should have raised flags when this fella went to apply for a license, much less attempted to acquire a firearm in any state.

Yet Maryland, the 4th most difficult state in the nation to get a gun in, still didn't send up *any* flags when he asked them if he get a couple of guns. There's no "gun show loophole" or lack of "adequate background check" or "no database of people with guns" or any of the other "common sense" gun control legislation that is always called for; Maryland has them ALL and heaps and heaps more. Heck, until last year they had gun manufacturers add a firing "fingerprint" so bullet casings could be forensically tracked back to a specific gun. Each gun sold would have to fire one bullet and that casing sent to the Maryland PD. At enormous cost the state and proved pivotal in solving ZERO crimes in it's 15 years of operation.

Short of going door and taking the guns in Maryland there are few other places MORE hostile to gun owners.

So then the guy loses a video game. Then, according to the police, leaves (either to retrieve the weapons or to stew a little), then comes back shooting killing two and then himself (though the reports aren't especially clear if it is 2+himself or two including himself but I'm inferring it was two+himself).

This was not the game. This was not the venue. People all over the world hold LAN parties and tournaments where competitive people get their blood up and even have fights. Just about none (I can't say zero cause I haven't been to them all) end up with a double homicide and bloodbath. And it was certainly not about the gun because I've been at LAN parties where there were dozens of cars right outside with rifles and other armament within easy reach and no matter how heated or drunk no one ever THOUGH about resolving a problem with a weapon.

Hell, we're less than a month and a half away from TWITCH-CON where some of the most competitive gamers from around the US and the World will gather to go head to head. How many years has it been going on and SOMEHOW not one body has dropped out of tens of thousands of attendees.

Not to mention all the tournaments at Blizzcon. 12 years or so without a (real-live) gun death!

Edit: Linky Link to some reportings of the life of the (will not mention the name) murderer.

Last edited by vallor; 08-27-2018 at 07:47 PM..
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Old 08-27-2018, 09:28 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by vallor View Post
This is an anomaly in a sea of anomalies.

Apparently the person was on antipsychotic medication, anti-depressants and, as a teenager, had a history of mental health issues serious enough to require his check-in into a psychiatric care facility. All of which should have raised flags when this fella went to apply for a license, much less attempted to acquire a firearm in any state.

Yet Maryland, the 4th most difficult state in the nation to get a gun in, still didn't send up *any* flags when he asked them if he get a couple of guns. There's no "gun show loophole" or lack of "adequate background check" or "no database of people with guns" or any of the other "common sense" gun control legislation that is always called for; Maryland has them ALL and heaps and heaps more. Heck, until last year they had gun manufacturers add a firing "fingerprint" so bullet casings could be forensically tracked back to a specific gun. Each gun sold would have to fire one bullet and that casing sent to the Maryland PD. At enormous cost the state and proved pivotal in solving ZERO crimes in it's 15 years of operation.

Short of going door and taking the guns in Maryland there are few other places MORE hostile to gun owners.

So then the guy loses a video game. Then, according to the police, leaves (either to retrieve the weapons or to stew a little), then comes back shooting killing two and then himself (though the reports aren't especially clear if it is 2+himself or two including himself but I'm inferring it was two+himself).

This was not the game. This was not the venue. People all over the world hold LAN parties and tournaments where competitive people get their blood up and even have fights. Just about none (I can't say zero cause I haven't been to them all) end up with a double homicide and bloodbath. And it was certainly not about the gun because I've been at LAN parties where there were dozens of cars right outside with rifles and other armament within easy reach and no matter how heated or drunk no one ever THOUGH about resolving a problem with a weapon.

Hell, we're less than a month and a half away from TWITCH-CON where some of the most competitive gamers from around the US and the World will gather to go head to head. How many years has it been going on and SOMEHOW not one body has dropped out of tens of thousands of attendees.

Not to mention all the tournaments at Blizzcon. 12 years or so without a (real-live) gun death!

Edit: Linky Link to some reportings of the life of the (will not mention the name) murderer.
So not only was this kid a nutjob to begin with but a liberal. Shock gasp fucking not at all amazed.
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Old 08-27-2018, 10:11 PM   #31
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It's intellectually lazy to hide behind blaming "leftists"for everything. Might as well blame Snowball. If you're actually blaming Democrats, or Baltimore, or anything but the shooter, you're AGREEING with "the left" that outside factors are responsible...not the criminal. Maybe think on it before you fall on that sword.

I also don't think it's about "never learning to lose." EVERYONE who has played Madden has lost, and lost in infuriating ways. It's impossible to avoid. The kid has lost hundreds of games.

In my opinion, he cracked under pressure. In esports games aren't meant to be fun. They're hyper-competitive, and young people without much else to their identity stake a lot of ego on the outcomes. They're not treated like video games; they're treated like video competitions.

Regular sports are usually run by adults who teach life skills along with the game. Young people are supposed to learn about good sportsmanship and teamwork. I don't think esports has matured to that point, so there's no bigger picture for them to see. They're not all in danger of this kind of behavior, but I don't see a lot of smiles and laughter when I watch esports. I don't think it's healthy for young people to have a dose of tough competition WITHOUT the accompanying lessons and enjoyment that's supposed to go along with it.

But I'm older, so maybe this is an "in my day" moment. I just remember games as being fun, and the trash-talking came from friends; not strangers halfway across the globe.
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Old 08-27-2018, 11:15 PM   #32
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It's intellectually lazy to hide behind blaming "leftists"for everything. Might as well blame Snowball. If you're actually blaming Democrats, or Baltimore, or anything but the shooter, you're AGREEING with "the left" that outside factors are responsible...not the criminal. Maybe think on it before you fall on that sword.

I also don't think it's about "never learning to lose." EVERYONE who has played Madden has lost, and lost in infuriating ways. It's impossible to avoid. The kid has lost hundreds of games.

In my opinion, he cracked under pressure. In esports games aren't meant to be fun. They're hyper-competitive, and young people without much else to their identity stake a lot of ego on the outcomes. They're not treated like video games; they're treated like video competitions.

Regular sports are usually run by adults who teach life skills along with the game. Young people are supposed to learn about good sportsmanship and teamwork. I don't think esports has matured to that point, so there's no bigger picture for them to see. They're not all in danger of this kind of behavior, but I don't see a lot of smiles and laughter when I watch esports. I don't think it's healthy for young people to have a dose of tough competition WITHOUT the accompanying lessons and enjoyment that's supposed to go along with it.

But I'm older, so maybe this is an "in my day" moment. I just remember games as being fun, and the trash-talking came from friends; not strangers halfway across the globe.
With the shit politicians like Maxine Waters say are you shocked really? Come on now Vallor. I agree with you 100% it's completely on him. But really at the end of the day it's the same ol shit. Can't wait to watch David Hogg want to ban video games, coming soon to a Soros funded "grass roots" conference near you!

I also agree with you in general to be honest.
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Old 08-28-2018, 05:09 AM   #33
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"A white male gunman"
Katz.

Dude was jewish, for the record.

White imo, but not to many. Who knows.

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In any case, we've got a problem with video games in this country.
Im 90% checked out as is. This may cause me to go nintendo/retro 100%

Its just fucking dumb and toxic at this point ...

Politics, f2p, and microtransactions have made it awkward and gross. Im even tired of bitching about it.
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Old 08-28-2018, 05:44 AM   #34
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why mentally ill people can get weapons?

In Greece to get a gun(pistol) you need to pass a 6 month psychiatric evaluation and a checkup every year.... and If you want to cary the gun with you, you have to prove to the police that your life is in Danger...

Shotguns and one bullet hunting rifles are easier to get and ALWAYS must be moved 100% disassembled and notify the police for the destination. (small form) ...

Even in the weekly firing range on Sunday they ask for your license to see if you have it updated...

also any modification to make the gun automatic is like 25 years in Prison...
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Old 08-28-2018, 05:14 PM   #35
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why mentally ill people can get weapons?
Seems to be a variety of reasons, to include government personnel simply not doing or incorrectly doing the paperwork to legally bar people that were to be legally barred. Even if a mentally ill person is barred from legally owning a firearm, it doesn't mean they won't obtain one illegally. Of course if legal barriers worked, they would have stopped him.

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In Greece to get a gun(pistol) you need to pass a 6 month psychiatric evaluation and a checkup every year.... and If you want to cary the gun with you, you have to prove to the police that your life is in Danger...
Some places in the United States require that you prove to police that there is a need for you to carry a firearm in public. A variety of high profile mass shooters have been under professional mental care, with those professionals able to legally pursue the disarmament of that person -- they didn't. Also, there have been people murdered while awaiting permission from the police to obtain/carry a firearm in hopes of protecting themselves.

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Shotguns and one bullet hunting rifles are easier to get and ALWAYS must be moved 100% disassembled and notify the police for the destination. (small form) ...

Even in the weekly firing range on Sunday they ask for your license to see if you have it updated...

also any modification to make the gun automatic is like 25 years in Prison...
There are already numerous laws against illegally modifying a semi-automatic firearm to fire full-auto. Different states have different laws regarding the transportation of a firearm, with some of Maryland's being strict.

The shooter in the case reportedly committed murder with a firearm in a "gun free" zone. If that is true, the murderer was not allowed to bring a firearm. It unfortunately didn't stop him.

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Chief Mike Williams with the Jacksonville Sheriff's Department revealed on Monday that David Katz was armed with two firearms - a .45 caliber, a 9mm and extra ammo when he committed Sunday's shootings. He only used one of those firearms in the shooting though, and it was outfitted with an aftermarket laser sight. ATF agents said Katz legally purchased both weapons within the month of August in Baltimore from a licensed dealer.
From the same link above:
Quote:
Divorce filings from the parents of 24-year-old David Katz of Baltimore say that as a teenager he was twice hospitalized in psychiatric facilities and that he was prescribed anti-psychotic and anti-depressant medications.
He had apparently seen medical professionals at some point. I'm not sure if he continued to receive treatment via sessions, medication, or a combination.

This article seems to imply the treatment was in the past:
Quote:
The young man who opened fire at a Florida video game tournament had shown abundant signs he was struggling with a mental disorder: He was prescribed an anti-psychotic drug as an adolescent and had been hospitalized at least twice for mental illness.

BALTIMORE (AP) — The young man who opened fire at a Florida video game tournament had shown abundant signs he was struggling with a mental disorder: He was prescribed an anti-psychotic drug as an adolescent and had been hospitalized at least twice for mental illness.

Yet David Katz landed at the foggy intersection of America's mental health and legal systems when it came to buying the two handguns that police say he carried during the attack, which killed two people and wounded 10 others during the "Madden NFL 19" competition in Jacksonville. The rampage ended when the 24-year-old Baltimore man fatally shot himself.

Experts say the gunman's history of mental illness apparently would not have stopped him from buying guns in Maryland, where buyers cannot pass a background check if they were either involuntarily committed for any period of time or voluntarily admitted to a psychiatric facility for at least 30 consecutive days.
The answer? It seems the usual are calling for yet more laws on top of laws they claimed would prevent such a thing:
Quote:
A Maryland legislator said the attack highlights the need to review laws governing the length of time someone can be voluntarily admitted to a psychiatric facility and still pass a background check for firearms.

"That clearly is an area in need of reform," said Democratic Sen. Robert Zirkin, who chairs a Senate committee that handles gun laws.
Some appear to think this:
If you were ever mentally ill you shouldn't ever be able to buy a gun.
If you're currently mentally ill, the military should issue you one -- or something more powerful.
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Many cultures of the world marry girls off after their first menses, around 13 years old. I can't say that's inherently immoral, no.
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Old 08-29-2018, 08:37 AM   #36
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If mentally ill people were truly banned from carrying guns the gun business would go out of business.
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Old 08-29-2018, 09:31 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Dag-Sabot View Post
If mentally ill people were truly banned from carrying guns the gun business would go out of business.
Arguably no one is totally sane all the time, including those we trust with the most powerful weapons in the world.



EDIT: Mis-attributed the quote to Denis Leary.

Last edited by vallor; 08-29-2018 at 09:58 AM..
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Old 08-29-2018, 10:27 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by vallor View Post
Arguably no one is totally sane all the time, including those we trust with the most powerful weapons in the world.
Mental illness is extremely common. In fact, 1 in 5 Americans will have at least one diagnosable mental disorder during their lifetimes. We need to work toward killing the stigma towards mental illness, mental health, and seeking assistance. Clearly, it wouldn't solve every single problem out there and yes, bad things would still happen...but it would go a long way toward helping to prevent things like this from happening.
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Old 08-29-2018, 10:45 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Chimpbot View Post
Mental illness is extremely common. In fact, 1 in 5 Americans will have at least one diagnosable mental disorder during their lifetimes. We need to work toward killing the stigma towards mental illness, mental health, and seeking assistance. Clearly, it wouldn't solve every single problem out there and yes, bad things would still happen...but it would go a long way toward helping to prevent things like this from happening.
Common sense solutions? You know by now the left doesn't do common sense, easier to blame the gun and push to disarm people.
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Old 09-02-2018, 05:21 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Chimpbot View Post
Mental illness is extremely common. In fact, 1 in 5 Americans will have at least one diagnosable mental disorder during their lifetimes. We need to work toward killing the stigma towards mental illness, mental health, and seeking assistance. Clearly, it wouldn't solve every single problem out there and yes, bad things would still happen...but it would go a long way toward helping to prevent things like this from happening.
This stigma doesn't exist anymore imo. Hell, in the 80s it was on the way out.
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